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Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#201
post #192
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why?

I also don't understand your comment. I went so far as to quickly skim through the history of Taiwan and I don't understand why you said China belongs to Taiwan?

I expect his argument is that the former national government of mainland China fled to Taiwan during the revolution.

This is true, but it doesn't make a strong argument for legitimacy. Former governments flee countries frequently, and unless there is a rapidly implemented plan to try to get them back into power they are generally ignored.

Taiwan is better viewed as a breakaway state than having any legitimate stake in the government of mainland China.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#202
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communist China has only had a mere 100 years compared to it's 5000 year history.

>it's 5000 year history Please don't give credence to nonsensical nationalist tropes. The Oracle Bone Script goes back to about 1200 BC during the Shang Dynasty, that makes about 3200 years of history. Before that it's _pre-history_. It's a bit younger than Linear B, Old Avestan and Vedic Sanskrit. So in terms of a traceable, continuous culture China is at the fourth place of so. These days I'd probably be called a "…

> It's a bit younger than Linear B, Old Avestan and Vedic Sanskrit. So in terms of a traceable, continuous culture China is at the fourth place of so.

Linear B does not represent a traceable, continuous culture.

Neither does Old Avestan.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA has been losing all war games where it defends Tawain against China. https://nypost.com/2021/03/11/us-war-games-over-china-threat... It is not okay to assume USA supremacy against adversaries anymore. Why Americans still do business with China is astounding to me.

Keep in mind that those results are publicized to argue for budgets.

This is definition of ad hominem. Sure, there's a motivation, but do you think the war games are a conspiracy? I don't find it difficult to imagine the US would fail to protect an ally on enemy turf.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#204
post #116
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Beijing ever martyrs the protestors like tianeman again I don't think the world will take kindly to that at all. I even think russia would join an american coalition. China has no strong allies that wouldn't prefer to spare themselves in the event of worldwide intervention and they can't fight off the entire developed world alone no matter how far they came in recent decades.

Ah, but China holds all the financial levers to keep everyone in their place. If there were a war there'd be no "Made in China" goods being exported. Take a look around you and think about that for a few minutes. They can get away with almost anything. The only thing they fear is an internal uprising.

> The only thing they fear is an internal uprising.

Unfortunately, they're so good at propaganda and fear that they seem to have the civil unrest front on lock. Any real protests are erased and no one is allowed to mention it ever happened.

I have to assume this practice won't last forever. Historically, it never does. But it could last a while.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of effort China is putting to sabotage Taiwan independence is astonishing. I have Taiwanese relatives and I'm very worried for them.

The USA has been losing all war games where it defends Tawain against China. https://nypost.com/2021/03/11/us-war-games-over-china-threat... It is not okay to assume USA supremacy against adversaries anymore. Why Americans still do business with China is astounding to me.

1) "Last fall, the latest war game was based on a Chinese biological-weapon attack that swept through US bases and warships in the Indo-Pacific region"

These are superfluous conditions (i.e. predicting bioweapons), and of course, and you're not going to hear about the 'real' results. And of course it ignores the after effects.

2) Defenders have considerable advantage in that situation, especially with a water gap. The 'amphibious assault' situation is severely hampered by the fact that even with air cover, all Chinese surface vessels are 'extremely vulnerable'.

Literally just a single, 2-man style team weapon system, if it could actually be deployed without sabotage, could make it nary impossible for such landings. I think it would be crazy for Taiwan not to have specialty capabilities against that kind of assault. Landing operations very dangerous for the landers.

3) Taiwan has 23M most of whom won't go down without a fight. It's incredibly difficult to occupy a place like that.

4) The 'angle' for China is likely political, and to land a vanguard of political operatives, saboteurs of all kinds, media controllers etc. and possibly to try a 'coup from within' as opposed to a frontal military confrontation.

5) Any direct military engagement would be met with pretty serious repercussions, for the first time maybe, from the West. It would be 'a big deal'.

If there were actually even a small US confrontation and say a couple of US frigates were sunk ... don't underestimate how Americans will rally under the wrath of that offence. 90% of the generally anti-war voices will quiet and look the other way while the 'other half' of the US releases the dragons in one way or another. If, as in the stated example there were 'Bioweapons' used against the US, then it would be WW3 level escalation and a nuclear standoff.

So again 'military confrontation' is a big deal, but 'military confrontation with Americans' is a much bigger deal they won't forget.

In either case, the tide of geopolitics will shift dramatically.

NPTO - the Asian equivalent of NATO would be formed instantly, with UK and EU as participating members.

TPP v2 - this would happen immediately and China would be de-facto ignored / out of the WTO.

There would be a China v. 'Almost Everyone Else' Cold War in which everyone would be forced to choose sides. In that scenario, there are actually very few places that would chose China, if forced. Aside from Russia, which would try to 'broker peace' (and of course Iran/N. Korea/Afghanistan/Syria) I think the only real holdouts would be in Africa, and they wouldn't be consequential. The Arab world would mostly go 'With the US/EU-led rest of the world' and so would South American for the most part.

6) We 'do business' with Taiwan in the hope that they can remain at least at their current levels of independence.

If China wants to take Taiwan and leverage the kind of spineless 'look the other way' artefact of our businesses and politicians they'll do it piece by piece, and/or make it look like a popular and legitimate 'coup' - and that Chinese forces are there 'only to ensure order and stability' and to 'protect democracy'. They need to give enough political cover to Nike, Pizza Hut and Apple to not pull out from China etc.. Kind of like Crimea, where we just 'forgot about it'.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#206

Genuine, non-inflammatory question: Who's behind this, in China? I know that "Winnie the Pooh" gets the public blame, but this seems to be a very... public, provocative thing to do. Is the person ordering it aware of that, and how provocative it is? Is it Carrie Lam? Their chief of police? Orders from someone higher up in the party, maybe at the ministerial level? Or does the order really from the top? Frankly, I wou…

I'm the furthest thing from an expert, but if you think about it from a PR/publicity sense, its the best time to do it;

1. No one is paying attention due to the pandemic,

2. By 2047, there'll be no dissodence left and the transition will seem smooth, instead of a fight. The press will say the transition happened with minimal incidence, and it allows China to de-value any protests/outcry from other countries.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#207
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communist China has only had a mere 100 years compared to it's 5000 year history.

>it's 5000 year history Please don't give credence to nonsensical nationalist tropes. The Oracle Bone Script goes back to about 1200 BC during the Shang Dynasty, that makes about 3200 years of history. Before that it's _pre-history_. It's a bit younger than Linear B, Old Avestan and Vedic Sanskrit. So in terms of a traceable, continuous culture China is at the fourth place of so. These days I'd probably be called a "…

That was the most pedantic correction I've ever seen on HN in a while :-). I think the parent was just speaking loosely rather than spreading "nonsensical nationalistic tropes". Take it easy.

Does being 5000 or 3200 years old really change the discussion to anyone but historians?

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#208
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: Why not just give Taiwan nukes? MAD seems to be a very effective peace strategy. China already has nukes. Seems the essential missing ingredient is the 'M'.

Step back and just think about it in realpolitik terms. If you were the leader of china, what would you think about the idea of nuclear weapons being brought to your borders? In a similar situation (the US had nukes in turkey and other areas close to the USSR) the Soviet Union used the same rational (in part) to justify putting nukes in Cuba. Just leveling the playing field. The result was the closest we’ve ever gott…

They would not be able to stop it though.

By the time it was announced, it would already be done.

The only real option China would have would be 'force' and a frontal war with China is a really big deal.

That said, US-provided nukes for Taiwan would be a major escelation and fingers would be pointed in the direction of the US for 'blame' etc.. A lot of people would throw a fit over that.

It might be better to just put a US base there because it means the same thing, and more: if you mess with Taiwan, even if you overrun the local US forces, you have 'awoken the actual Dragon' and no amount of 'internal division' in the US would hamper them from becoming united against China and of course all sorts of other huge material fallouts.

Ironically, I think it's the American regime who would not be able to pull it off. It would require cooperation among to many agencies and serious leadership. There'd have to be a pretty good President, with a lot of leverage, he'd have to be popular in the polls, have the backing of the Pentagon etc. etc.. I just can't see that working out so directly. It'd have to be done in a roundabout way.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#209
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, but China holds all the financial levers to keep everyone in their place. If there were a war there'd be no "Made in China" goods being exported. Take a look around you and think about that for a few minutes. They can get away with almost anything. The only thing they fear is an internal uprising.

> If there were a war there'd be no "Made in China" goods being exported. That would be the best thing that ever happened to the rest of the world, and to Chinese citizens as well. China has long abused its citizens to undercut global prices on manufactured goods. Their political and religious prisoners are very often put to work in factories (if not sent to work camps or tortured in prison); and wages for factory wo…

We wouldn't be trading with China if it didn't benefit us. A sanction damages the participants as much as its target. This doesn't matter if your target is a smaller country like Iran or even Russia, but China is way to big an exporter to sanction.

>Their political and religious prisoners are very often put to work in factories (if not sent to work camps or tortured in prison)

So you want them to shut down the factories, in which case they'll be sent to be sent to labor camps or rot in prison instead?

>wages for factory work are very low compared to the rest of the world.

China's average wage more than doubled over the past 10 years. Do you expect wages to increase by an order of magnitude overnight? Also, why would you blame China for this instead of the importers demanding razor thin margins or manufactured goods?

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#210
post #207
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it's 5000 year history Please don't give credence to nonsensical nationalist tropes. The Oracle Bone Script goes back to about 1200 BC during the Shang Dynasty, that makes about 3200 years of history. Before that it's _pre-history_. It's a bit younger than Linear B, Old Avestan and Vedic Sanskrit. So in terms of a traceable, continuous culture China is at the fourth place of so. These days I'd probably be called a "…

That was the most pedantic correction I've ever seen on HN in a while :-). I think the parent was just speaking loosely rather than spreading "nonsensical nationalistic tropes". Take it easy. Does being 5000 or 3200 years old really change the discussion to anyone but historians?

I think it touched a nerve because that line of thinking ("we're the oldest culture") is presumably highly propagandized amongst CCP China. 1800 years is the difference between "best" and "just another", which is a big deal in totalitarian narrative terms :)
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