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How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

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Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#911
post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't many groups advocating for quotas? In France, it's a thing now to try to always have as much women as men in groups, especially those with high prestige (government, board of directors, etc). I don't know if it's precisely a few groups advocating for it, but it's now a thing most people expect. That's for me an example of equality of outcomes and not of oppurtunity.

In France, there is a national gender equality rule (enacted in 2013) that states that no more than 60% of new appointments to management positions in public service should go to one sex. Though bringing more female representation and thereby creating gender parity in employment served as the impetus, this rule was broken in Paris in 2018 when 69% of jobs went to women under the mayor's (Anne Hidalgo) purview. This l…

Until 1945 (later?) women didn't have the vote in France, so I think a situation where one local government has 69% women is very clearly progress. I seriously doubt that women make a majority of civil servants in general.

When women are overrepresented in every prestigious sector, I think it'll be worth having a rethink about policies like this. Until then, it seems a bit ridiculous - and I say this as a man. If you're a man, and you're not an idiot, you've doubtless noticed a ton of incidents where your gender has helped you advance socially or professionally. You can't just overnight shuck of centuries of history. Quotas are a simple way of trying to push back on that.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#912

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If success to them looks like an equal number of white/black/asian/women it's an unreachable goal It's not the goal. You've created a strawman and wasted your own time fighting it. > In my mind it's equality of opportunity. I don't care what color your skin is That doesn't magically erase that they grew in up in a racist society that does care what color their skin is. It's insulting to many people of color to hear…

When I say I don’t care what color a person is, I’m saying their skin color does not affect my decision. Are they the best candidate? I don’t care what got you here. My grandfather was a POW in a German camp in WW2, my grandparents walked over the alps for an opportunity for a better life in France. Nobody gave them a shot just because they had a rough early life. My parents didn’t speak English when they got to this…

> When I say I don’t care what color a person is, I’m saying their skin color does not affect my decision.

Their skin color most likely affected their life in profound ways. Why would you want to willingly ignore their actual life experience? Any employer who did that would be missing the actual person and what they bring to the table. A person is not list of qualifications and specifications.

> My grandfather was a POW in a German camp in WW2, my grandparents walked over the alps for an opportunity for a better life in France. Nobody gave them a shot just because they had a rough early life.

You don't know that. You weren't at the job interviews when someone said "this guy crossed the alps just to get a better job, give him a job". I would feel really stupid as an employer if I didn't know the difference between the local lazy guy who has all the skills but wouldn't cross the road to get a job let alone cross the alps vs the guy who needs training but is willing to cross mountains to improve his life. When I interviewed for jobs in Italy some of the interviewers asked me to start at kindergarten. Tough interviews. But by the end they knew a hell of a lot about my life experiences. Why did they bother to spend so much time getting to know me when they could have just given me a simple test to see if I was qualified?

> With regards to the numbers, they are what they are, what exactly is it that you want with respect to that situation? Do you want to get rid of 45 white people so it’s even? Truly - I don’t understand what you’re trying to point out.

I'm trying to point out that minorities have a different life experience from the majority, and it's because of their skin color. It seems like you want to pretend those differences don't exist and that skin color doesn't or shouldn't matter to the people who it affects in negative ways.

> I have a 9yo son with an incurable chronic illness that could kill him that we have to manage 24/7.

It must be a lot of extra responsiblity and stress. I would definitely want to know that if I were your employer so I could make accomodations. Does your employer know this? If so, why did you tell your employer about your son? Why should your life experience and home situation matter at all if it's simply "best qualified"?

> I don’t expect the world to change their behavior for my son’s well-being just because he’s not in the majority.

They already have. It's against the law to not hire him because of his diabetes. Once upon a time it was not against the law. And without the law many employers would take a pass on the extra risk and just hire someone without diabetes. Hopefully you agree that the world changing in the case was an improved world?

> I wouldn’t want someone to hire him because he’s a type 1 diabetic.

I never suggested you should hire someone because of the color of their skin. I suggested that you should care about skin color because if you are hiring people of color, they most likely care about their skin color and how it affected them.

You care about your grandparents story and your son's story enough to tell both of them. Everyone cares about their story. Some people's stories are full of racism and how their skin color affected them.

> I want someone to hire him because he’s the best available candidate.

Your son will not be able to pilot large commercial planes. Or join the military. Even if he is the best candidate. He faces obstacles in life that other people do not face. Without laws, many employers would simply take a pass and avoid the extra cost and risk associated with an employee with a life threatening medical condition. But top employers of today would do the opposite. All else being equal I would hire the person with diabetes. Any time people cross the same finish line but someone had more obstacles to overcome they are very likely the better candidate. Your son's diabetes would affect my decision. And I would care that he has diabetes because he cares about it. "I don't care if you have diabetes" is mediocre interviewing. "Your diabetes won't affect my decision" is mediocre interviewing. If diabetes has affected your son's life, it should affect my decision. I'm sure he'll have stories he is proud of that directly involve diabetes. And other stories that have nothing to do with diabetes. Of course I would want what he's proud of to affect my hiring decision.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#913
post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately this laissez fair approach is the exact opposite of modern wokeness. It’s their way or it’s attacks and cancellation. If you’re an oppressor class you have almost no way to be forgiven. The easiest way to show this is just ask some woke stars on their views of libertarianism, which is literally to let everyone be themselves.

I have had many debates with libertarians over the decades and have yet to meet one who believes in either practice or theory to "literally to let everyone be themselves". Libertarianism fails really hard in situations where you have a lot more overall prosperity if you limit everybody. Libertarianism misses these opportunities because of its blindness to anything but individual freedoms. In economic terms it mostly…

If they would only accede that the free market is a useful tool, instead of an infallible diety, we could get somewhere.

All models are wrong, but some are useful

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#914
post #340

As a christian I believe in mercy and grace. And yes, many of us 'believers' have not practised what we preached. Many of us do try however not to be hypocrites. Here's my question. Where is mercy and grace in the midst of wokeness? I want you to believe my christian message but I will not force you to do so. I don't want to introduce laws to force you to believe what I believe. I don't want you to lose your job beca…

You may personally believe in mercy and grace and not forcing people to be Christian, but historically, the entire reason Christianity is so prevalent is Christians traveled to other continents with guns and forcibly slaughtered or enslaved the natives if they didn't convert and took their children away and forced them into Christian schools. Whatever you think of "wokeness," it isn't anywhere near a level of world-c…

Please don't take HN threads into religious flamewar. We're trying to avoid this predictable hell here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#915

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any outcome that diverges from the percent population means the institution is racist. This is literally the foundation of woke culture 1) More blacks are incarcerated than their representation in the population. Therefore the justice/police system is racist and must be abolished (BLM) 2) Minorities cant get loans in proportion to their representation in the population therefore the financial system is racist and mus…

>3) Minorities cannot achieve the same scores in math and science No. Nice try but I don't buy it. I'll entertain the idea, "if you ruin early education along racial lines you produce disparity of outcomes and this is racist", but I'm not going to sit still for "minorities cannot achieve the same scores in math and science", and especially not for framing it like that's the fundamental issue and what to DO about it i…

Charitably: 3) (Some) minorities are not achieving the same scores in math and science, therefore math and science are racist and must be abolished.

Something to consider: as the 'abolish math and science' movement grows in influence, especially in public schools, students of lower means are likely to fall further behind their more affluent peers, whose parents afford private schooling and tutoring.

It is in the strategic interest of this country, both from an internal cohesion POV and from an international competitiveness POV, to encourage excellence in STEM, across race and class lines. Consider that the voices ready to raise 'racism' at every slight opportunity are actually making it harder to achieve this goal.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#916
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being required to, say, share drinking fountains or pools with people of another race should not be compared to this. Indeed. And I didn't. I said "negro". Generations of people genuinely thought that was a neutral term. They were pissed as all fuck when all of a sudden it became a symbol of centuries of oppression. And they used language exactly like yours to express their exasperation. But the words changed anywa…

Sounds like you're describing the word " Negro " as a [scapegoat]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat ): it was cast as a symbol of evil so that it could be canceled as such. I guess that's a way to see the basic tension there: some folks might argue that using scapegoats can help society move on, while others might object on the basis that the goat wasn't actually evil. Alternatively, we can see switching away…

> some folks might argue that using scapegoats can help society move on, while others might object [...]

Right, but in this particular instance what actually happened is that we just moved on by building consensus around a new paradigm. No one uses the word anymore, and nothing awful happened.

Therefore I argue that similar hand wringing about gender pronouns is going to turn out equally bland. It's fine. Just relax. Society isn't falling apart, you're just being socially awkward. And in fifty years everyone will think the antiwoke conservatives were just being ridiculous.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#917

I think people are over-analysing this issue here at HN. It is far better for upper class to ensure that people discuss and focus on issues like gender and skin colour than the class differences. Hence, they ensured that this is the issue plebs would hear all over on the media and shift their attention from class divides to gender and skin colour.

How does this work, practically? Do the owners of media corporations call up their reports and say “hey, focus on gender issues, stop those wealth inequality articles?”

No, mega corporations who own media corporations (Comcast, AT&T, Disney, ect) hire people like Jeff Zucker to run the network and ensure the focus is on race and gender issues and avoid wealth inequality and corporate pillaging articles.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#918

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To begin with, no reasonable person is saying there should be a completely even balance in proportions of race in any field, for exactly the reasons you point out. The problem is that in reality, certain "merit-based" programs such as workplaces or colleges don't also align with the racial demographics of the general public, and it's a discrepancy that should make you ask "why?". The problem with a blind "merit-based…

> The hard part about this is that it comes off as saying that you should treat people differently because of their race. And that's pretty much what it is. It would require some level of sacrifice by the privileged, at least temporarily, in order to bring everybody back to equal footing. Isn’t that what affirmative action was supposed to be? Why stop at race? Why not with other physical attributes? Why not force NBA…

The difference is that the examples you give are intrinsic factors to physical advantages. STEM/academics/work/etc. are extrinsic. Short people are worse at basketball or hockey because their genetics inherently disadvantage them. Underrepresented racial minorities and women are _not_ worse at STEM/academics/work/etc. because their genetics inherently disadvantage them.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#919
post #900

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this work, practically? Do the owners of media corporations call up their reports and say “hey, focus on gender issues, stop those wealth inequality articles?”

It would presumably be much like scientific research. Nobody tells you what to study, but Philip Morris isn’t going to bankroll you if you’re studying what makes tobacco addicting. Similarly, Media Corp enthusiastically sends an army of reporters to cover racial issues, yet just doesn’t happen to assign anyone to investigate corruption in the press. Think less Mafia Don and more Invisible Hand.

>It would presumably be much like scientific research.

Is there some sort of shadow organization funding all the woke stories?

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#920

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my experience, what libertarians really want is freedom for themselves. They do not actually care how their actions affect others. For example, I’ve yet to meet a libertarian who cares about their carbon emissions, even though that affects everybody else via climate change. Same goes for coronavirus - they don’t care if they spread the disease to others, but they feel like it’s oppression if they have to wear a…

> For example, I’ve yet to meet a libertarian who cares about their carbon emissions Something tells me you’ve yet to a meet a libertarian at all. Being held accountable for your pollution of others’ property is a tenant of libertarianism. > Same goes for coronavirus - they don’t care if they spread the disease to others This sounds quite the opposite of libertarianism. Hurting/killing others isn’t part of the ideolo…

> Being held accountable for your pollution of others’ property is a tenant of libertarianism

The air we share and breath isn't "others' property" though is it?

Like the parent commenter, I've also met and debated many libertarians over the past couple of decades. I've yet to meet one who cares in the least bit about polluting the air I breath. Or if they do claim to care they offer solutions that history has proven to not work: just remove every last regulation and the magic of free markets will make abuse magically disappear. When the opposite is true. The very worst air pollution happened when there were no regulations.

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