How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life? • Hacker News Board

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#811

Post by kaitai » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

The "upper class" will always use whatever tools are at its disposal to further its own agenda. Doesn't matter what the tools are. The "upper class" has done plenty of Trump band-wagonism, just from evangelical and corporate elite circles. Look back in history: what was Carnegie trying to do with all his libraries? Not pure altruism. What did the "upper class" do with women's lib? Turn women into workers and consumer from whom more profit could be extracted. What has the "upper class" done with concern for the environment? Corporate greenwashing. What has the "upper class" done with religion? Used it for control, from Myanmar and India and Pakistan to the US to the Thirty Years War in the 1600s to Nigeria today.

Just want to keep things in perspective. Everything is a tool when it comes to retention of power: religion, conscience, nature, food. And no one should be fooled. People should all realize the limits of the "support" and strive to do the right thing and treat each other well regardless of those larger forces. Powers & principalities & politics have been discussed since antiquity.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#812

Post by doc_gunthrop » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

Zababa wrote: post #683

karmelapple wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a few concrete examples of large groups strongly advocating for equality of outcomes? I’ve had discussions about “equality” with folks aligned across the political spectrum, and most everyone agrees they want equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. I’m confused about who or what group is speaking about people desiring equality of outcome. And discriminating against other people because of their…

Aren't many groups advocating for quotas? In France, it's a thing now to try to always have as much women as men in groups, especially those with high prestige (government, board of directors, etc). I don't know if it's precisely a few groups advocating for it, but it's now a thing most people expect. That's for me an example of equality of outcomes and not of oppurtunity.

In France, there is a national gender equality rule (enacted in 2013) that states that no more than 60% of new appointments to management positions in public service should go to one sex.

Though bringing more female representation and thereby creating gender parity in employment served as the impetus, this rule was broken in Paris in 2018 when 69% of jobs went to women under the mayor's (Anne Hidalgo) purview. This led to a fine of €90,000 against the Paris government.

Both the mayor and deputy mayor (Audrey Pulvar) publicly expressed happiness, pride, and a sense of honor at having been fined for breaking the rule. In 2019, the fine was subsequently dropped.

So here we have an interesting example of aiming for equality of outcome. What makes it interesting is that when the results led to inequality in favor of one particular side, it was actually championed and seen as progress.

Sources:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55330297

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-55339750

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#813

Post by Zababa » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

doc_gunthrop wrote: post #812

Zababa wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't many groups advocating for quotas? In France, it's a thing now to try to always have as much women as men in groups, especially those with high prestige (government, board of directors, etc). I don't know if it's precisely a few groups advocating for it, but it's now a thing most people expect. That's for me an example of equality of outcomes and not of oppurtunity.

In France, there is a national gender equality rule (enacted in 2013) that states that no more than 60% of new appointments to management positions in public service should go to one sex. Though bringing more female representation and thereby creating gender parity in employment served as the impetus, this rule was broken in Paris in 2018 when 69% of jobs went to women under the mayor's (Anne Hidalgo) purview. This l…

Thanks, I didn't know about what happened in Paris.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#814

Post by zionic » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

GiorgioG wrote: post #787

What exactly is the goal of the 'woke' as it pertains to race or gender? If success to them looks like an equal number of white/black/asian/women it's an unreachable goal. According to the 2020 census: 57.8% of Americans are white, 16.3% are hispanic, 12.2% are black, and 5.9% are asian. It seems as plain as day that even if we could remove racism from the equation, it's more likely that whites will make up more shar…

Their goal is not equality of opportunity, it is equality of outcome. They’ll willingly sacrifice anyone in the top 50% to elevate the lowest of the low, no matter how little they try or deserve it.

This is broadly true in all leftist policy, from higher education to taxation to the way we structure kindergarten. Success, achievement, and work ethic are to be admonished. Leftist pseudomorality establishes the victim as the highest achievable social status, rewarding those who take more from society than give to it.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#815

Post by zdragnar » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

benlivengood wrote: post #684

FiberBundle wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well a good first step would be to accept that societal changes take time to develop. We have made huge progress in areas such as women's rights. Asian immigrants, which were severely discriminated against in the past, have achieved tremendous upward mobility in our society. There are many other areas in which our society has progressed. All of this progress has occurred without any of the radical discrimatory tactic…

> We have made huge progress in areas such as women's rights. In the U.S. there is still a major fight for women's reproductive rights, with frequent backsliding (TX is the most extreme recent example). > All of this progress has occurred without any of the radical discrimatory tactics that are used today. Every step toward restoring human rights to marginalized groups has been labeled radical (because technically it…

That isn't about women's rights. One side argues it is about womens rights, that abortion is merely a medical procedure.

The other side argues that the fetus (usually called "unborn") have independent heartbeats and unique DNA, and as such have their own right to life. That is why they use the term "pro-life".

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#816

Post by czzr » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

GiorgioG wrote: post #787

What exactly is the goal of the 'woke' as it pertains to race or gender? If success to them looks like an equal number of white/black/asian/women it's an unreachable goal. According to the 2020 census: 57.8% of Americans are white, 16.3% are hispanic, 12.2% are black, and 5.9% are asian. It seems as plain as day that even if we could remove racism from the equation, it's more likely that whites will make up more shar…

For your first question - equal to their share of the population. So blacks should be ~12% of all Harvard students, for example, as opposed to the current 6%.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#817

Post by hanselot » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

jrm4 wrote: post #780

I hate the phrase, because people on the other side use it to conflate longstanding serious thought and action on the matters with young naive liberal chatter. That being said, the easiest way to cut through most of it is to look toward people who have dealt with this sort of thing most of their lives, and "older black professionals" nearly always fit the bill. There's an unfortunate 'survival of the fittest' bent to…

Of course that's only if their politics agree with the status quo. Otherwise they are labelled a coconut and deplatformed.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#818

Post by 1auralynn » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

Pfft "wokeness" is just the latest label for people who have an investment in the status quo to complain about. Before that it was "political correctness", "hipsters", "hippies", etc. Not saying that there aren't annoying "woke" people (just like in any cohort of 22 yr old grad students there are gonna be some annoying ones who take themselves too seriously), but the pearl clutching is getting ridiculous here. The world isn't black and white, "woke" culture has some good points, for sure includes some amount of "taking it too far", but ultimately is, on the whole, made up of humans who you probably relate to on a personal level more than you don't.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#819

Post by sebastianconcpt » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:32 PM UTC

zionic wrote: post #814

GiorgioG wrote: post #787

What exactly is the goal of the 'woke' as it pertains to race or gender? If success to them looks like an equal number of white/black/asian/women it's an unreachable goal. According to the 2020 census: 57.8% of Americans are white, 16.3% are hispanic, 12.2% are black, and 5.9% are asian. It seems as plain as day that even if we could remove racism from the equation, it's more likely that whites will make up more shar…

Their goal is not equality of opportunity, it is equality of outcome. They’ll willingly sacrifice anyone in the top 50% to elevate the lowest of the low, no matter how little they try or deserve it. This is broadly true in all leftist policy, from higher education to taxation to the way we structure kindergarten. Success, achievement, and work ethic are to be admonished. Leftist pseudomorality establishes the victim…

I'd add to what you said that it's an apparent goal, because it's goal isn't concrete nor fixed. It's an impossible always changing imaginary that always needs more power and more obedience. Everything is about grabbing the power to produce behavioral control to keep them in power.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#820

Post by mindslight » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

bequanna wrote: post #795

mindslight wrote: post #768

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with your narrative, it also seems like a perfect straw man. It seems like the world has gone crazy, but via the web we're exposed to every crazy thing. I don't know how to reconcile these two things. There are surely people stuck in environments for whom it completely describes their experience. But like the wokeness narratives themselves, there are also going to be people facing adversity for other re…

Not denying the use of a straw man or some humor to illustrate my point. Like any movement, I’m sure there are some valid points being made. And like any movement, this one appeals to some legit human needs: significance, connection, contribution, etc. I think my main beef with wokeism is how disempowering it ends up being to an individual subscriber. The ideas being perpetuated (I am a victim, I am an oppressor but…

The underlying question is how big this "movement" is, or whether it's been blown out of proportion by the opposing political team, who benefits from the bogeyman.

So yes, your criticism of wokeism is valid. The question is how relevant it is. You mention "some naive people". Yes, in a highly connected world of 8 billion people, some people are doing literally anything. The question is whether there is enough of a new trend to make for an actual concern, or whether it's being blown out of proportion and context. This matters because opposition to wokeness seems to be its own strain of identity politics.