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How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

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Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#861

Post by Applejinx »

achenatx wrote: post #720
karmelapple wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a few concrete examples of large groups strongly advocating for equality of outcomes? I’ve had discussions about “equality” with folks aligned across the political spectrum, and most everyone agrees they want equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. I’m confused about who or what group is speaking about people desiring equality of outcome. And discriminating against other people because of their…

Any outcome that diverges from the percent population means the institution is racist. This is literally the foundation of woke culture 1) More blacks are incarcerated than their representation in the population. Therefore the justice/police system is racist and must be abolished (BLM) 2) Minorities cant get loans in proportion to their representation in the population therefore the financial system is racist and mus…

>3) Minorities cannot achieve the same scores in math and science

No.

Nice try but I don't buy it. I'll entertain the idea, "if you ruin early education along racial lines you produce disparity of outcomes and this is racist", but I'm not going to sit still for "minorities cannot achieve the same scores in math and science", and especially not for framing it like that's the fundamental issue and what to DO about it is the only concern. That axiom is busted, fake, made up by self-justifying racists… and racist, yes.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#862

Post by Applejinx »

eplanit wrote: post #681
yawaworht1978 wrote: post #327

It's just a shift from older, less flexible values like family, church etc to the more open minded approach, "do as you like". Nothing wrong with people having tattoos everywhere, green or violet hair, non conformist clothing and views. Let them be, let them express and find themselves. I am the shave every day suit kinda guy and will remain so, but if someone chooses to be different or wants to complain about new wo…

What about if their tattoos are swastikas or nooses, and the "non-conformist" views are antithetical with the ideals of "wokeness"? They're "doing as they like", so let them express and find themselves, right?

No. This is what critical theory (such as critical race theory) touches on: the obvious fact that social pressure can be applied not only through the letter of law, but also the context of what people can be compelled to tolerate in ordinary daily life.

If people constantly joke around about rape, it's clearly not meant to be that big of a crime, plus it's on people's minds as a possible thing to do.

If it's normal to go around presented with swastikas and nooses but not normal to react angrily to such messaging, then those things and Nazism and lynching are culturally acceptable regardless of the letter of the law, which will be next on the list to bring up to speed with what the cultural messaging is saying.

If it's normal to go around seeing giant expensive statues of slavers put up, not during a conflict but many years later when black civil rights are becoming a thing, then those slavers are the real heroes regardless of what the laws say… and the laws will follow along as soon as it's convenient to do so.

It's always projection. The fear of Critical Theory is real and not unjustified. That sort of societal-context thinking is how Nazis, slavers and racists have historically got what THEY wanted, so it stands to reason they'd recognize it right away when it's used against them.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#863

Post by angelzen »

nonameiguess wrote: post #849
angelzen wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you visited any American school recently? No cross in sight, but plenty of rainbow flags. Not sure about the gunpoint (in both historical and contemporary sides of the argument), but mass conversion it is.

Yes, actually. I live in the heart of downtown Dallas and was a fairly active Pokemon Go player for years, so I traveled all over the city to gyms and raids, many of which were at schools. I don't recall seeing a rainbow flag at any school at all. I do recall seeing them at City Hall and at a Raytheon facility, bizarrely enough. The only thing that stood out about the schools is how many of them had the names of conf…

That the outcome of the mass conversion has positive aspects is orthogonal to the point that mass conversion is happening.

I'll let you ponder whether donning sexual behavior symbolism at all in kindergarten and elementary school is an appropriate adult behavior. Which is pervasive on the West Coast, possibly Dallas is different.

There are some theological interpretations of this state of affairs that point into the direction of wokeism being a Christian heresy: Christian religion without Christ. I won't go any further because this is sadly radioactive ground.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#864

Post by Applejinx »

refurb wrote: post #677
yawaworht1978 wrote: post #327

It's just a shift from older, less flexible values like family, church etc to the more open minded approach, "do as you like". Nothing wrong with people having tattoos everywhere, green or violet hair, non conformist clothing and views. Let them be, let them express and find themselves. I am the shave every day suit kinda guy and will remain so, but if someone chooses to be different or wants to complain about new wo…

I agree 100% with you but that’s not the woke viewpoint. “Silence is violence”. Either get on board and start supporting them or you’re the enemy.

With regard to certain egalitarian principles, yes.

Silence is violence when there's a concerted effort to normalize unjustified hierarchy through cultural peer pressure. Whether it's 'let's all make rape jokes, also rapists aren't actually bad', or 'let's put up statues of slavers waaaaay after the war they were in, because slavers aren't actually bad', part of the purpose of such social pressure is to stifle anybody who's inclined to object.

The intensity with which people demand their right to performatively line up with bad things they claim they are not, right then, themselves, actually doing, tells me something about those people. I'm deeply not interested in exploring hypotheticals through which people might claim they want to dress up as a Nazi without actually being one, and deeply not impressed with the argument, "You're cruelly trying to punish me for BEING a Nazi, but I am only DRESSED as one, so you're morally obligated to be silent and let me do my own thing!"

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#865

Post by golergka »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #281
golergka wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> practical definition of "left" and "right" is "no hierarchy" vs "hierarchy" Absolutely not: it's the left that's usually the favor of giving more power to the most oppressive and monopolic hierarchy there is, the government, while the right is fighting to dismantle it.

And how is that working in Texas? The right doesn't want to dismantle government at all. It wants to own it.

Texas? The only state in US that resembles what I mean by the right is New Hampshire.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#866

Post by golergka »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #238
golergka wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> practical definition of "left" and "right" is "no hierarchy" vs "hierarchy" Absolutely not: it's the left that's usually the favor of giving more power to the most oppressive and monopolic hierarchy there is, the government, while the right is fighting to dismantle it.

I take it you haven't talked to many leftists, then. We're quite anti-authoritarian and opposed to hierarchy. If you consider US democrats to be "left", you are sadly mistaken.

I was born in USSR, still live in Moscow and have a very good understanding of what "left" is.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#867

Post by tchaffee »

GiorgioG wrote: post #787

What exactly is the goal of the 'woke' as it pertains to race or gender? If success to them looks like an equal number of white/black/asian/women it's an unreachable goal. According to the 2020 census: 57.8% of Americans are white, 16.3% are hispanic, 12.2% are black, and 5.9% are asian. It seems as plain as day that even if we could remove racism from the equation, it's more likely that whites will make up more shar…

> If success to them looks like an equal number of white/black/asian/women it's an unreachable goal

It's not the goal. You've created a strawman and wasted your own time fighting it.

> In my mind it's equality of opportunity. I don't care what color your skin is

That doesn't magically erase that they grew in up in a racist society that does care what color their skin is.

It's insulting to many people of color to hear "I don't care what color your skin is". An appropriate and honest response from a person of color might be "Must be nice. I wouldn't know what that's like because I never had the privilage of not caring what color my skin is". Probably not the great start you were hoping for.

It sounds like you want imagine the starting line was in the same place for every person who arrives to you as a candidate. When in fact some people got to you with a head start. Ignoring the starting line does the opposite of creating equality of opportunity. But ignoring the starting line is far simpler. And even useful for those who benefit from maintaining the status quo.

The best candidate for the work might just be the person who arrives less qualified and slightly behind the winner. Someone who started from far behind and almost caught up. If racism exists outside your interview, then equal opportunity at your interview must take into consideration that someone's race might have put up many obstacles on the long journey that got them to your interview.

Let's do a thought experiment. You're in a room with 57 white people and 12 black people. Those are the numbers you used. 10% of people in the room are racist. Every racist in the room gets to insult every person of the other race one time. Do the math. How many times is each white person insulted? How many times is each black person insulted? Is there "equality of opportunity" for everyone to leave that room and head to a job interview with the same level of self esteem? Multiple that by a lifetime.

If US demographics were in fact 50% white, 50% black, it would make things far easier to understand. Living in a society where race matters and you are hugely outnumbered is something the majority will always have great difficulting in relating to.

By not caring what someone's skin color is, you're passing over candidates who worked far harder to get where they are compared to someone who had fewer obstacles. Of course not every obstacle in life comes from race and some people of color may have even experienced a life of privilage.

So let's take a deaf candidate applying to your job. Like skin color, it's not something they chose nor something they can change. It very likey created obstacles for them in life that you never experienced. Would you treat them the same as non-deaf candidates? Speak to them with your back turned perhaps? Or would you adapt to who they really are?

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#868

Post by GiorgioG »

zionic wrote: post #814
GiorgioG wrote: post #787

What exactly is the goal of the 'woke' as it pertains to race or gender? If success to them looks like an equal number of white/black/asian/women it's an unreachable goal. According to the 2020 census: 57.8% of Americans are white, 16.3% are hispanic, 12.2% are black, and 5.9% are asian. It seems as plain as day that even if we could remove racism from the equation, it's more likely that whites will make up more shar…

Their goal is not equality of opportunity, it is equality of outcome. They’ll willingly sacrifice anyone in the top 50% to elevate the lowest of the low, no matter how little they try or deserve it. This is broadly true in all leftist policy, from higher education to taxation to the way we structure kindergarten. Success, achievement, and work ethic are to be admonished. Leftist pseudomorality establishes the victim…

> They’ll willingly sacrifice anyone in the top 50% to elevate the lowest of the low, no matter how little they try or deserve it. > This is broadly true in all leftist policy, from higher education to taxation to the way we structure kindergarten. Success, achievement, and work ethic are to be admonished. Leftist pseudomorality establishes the victim as the highest achievable social status, rewarding those who take more from society than give to it.

Maybe you should spend some time away from the news media and consider how we're all being bamboozled by the both parties, "right" and "left". Consider reading freely available "The Three Languages of politics" (summary here: https://quillette.com/2018/08/08/the-three-languages-of-poli... and enlighten yourself as to why the conservatives and progressives can never agree - because they're not talking about the same things.

The democratic and republican parties take advantage of this because once you're talking their language, you'll never be convinced to switch sides. If anything can bring this country down it's both of these parties tearing us apart.

I'm an independent and I've voted for both parties over the years. Don't be a lemming - these two parties are just vying for power, anything the 'little people' like us get is just a side-effect.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#869

Post by goatlover »

jhgb wrote: post #279
dfgpart wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say Gringx instead of Gringo? Or afficionadx instead of afficionado? Let the Latin language people decide and not delegate to white commissars.

> Let the Latin language people decide and not delegate to white commissars. Latins (later known as Romans) were white, though. So their commissars would be white, too.

I doubt they identified as a racial category invented centuries later. They probably thought of themselves as Romans, as opposed to Greeks, Persians, Egyptians or Jews. Skin color wasn't a deciding factor. Regionality and culture were what mattered.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#870

Post by sparks1970 »

ctrlp wrote: post #629
sbmassey wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is anti-Marxist, in that Marxism requires that the whole proletarian class of a society unite, whereas wokism pretty much guarantees that society will be shattered into thousands of mutually suspicious parts.

That is an out-dated depiction of Marxism.

Can you explain that further? I'm interested in the idea that our understanding of an idea like Marxism can improve the further away we are in time from it. That seems counter-intuitive.
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