How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life? • Hacker News Board

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#771

Post by pacbard » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

jackson1442 wrote: post #711

bequanna wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. The woke are experts at placing people into endless categories and determining which is “good” or “bad”. Which are the “oppressors” and the “victims”. Listen to their rhetoric, it is pretty much the opposite of live and let live. One of the more ridiculous ideas to come out of this is that “everything is a human construct”. For example, it appears to be a woke idea that mathematics, science is some human (mor…

> For example, it appears to be a woke idea that mathematics, science is some human (more specifically, white) invention and we should explore “alternative mathematics” or “alternative science”. Do you have a source for this? I’ve never heard of either of these terms, the closest being the “alternative facts” of one of Trump’s press secretaries.

While not necessarily being “woke”, any research tradition that identifies with post-positivism [1] tends to reject the traditional scientific method and proposes new ways to reach “scientific truth”.

There are many post-positivist research traditions in many fields that you will be able to look up and read more about if you are interested in specific citations and authors that do this kind of work.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpositivism

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#772

Post by courtf » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 3:36 PM UTC

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #452

clusterfish wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But lots of people want that power. And most of us agree that it's bad. But most of us somehow don't agree that forcing wokeness on others is bad. Because the woke ones can't possibly imagine being wrong. Theirs is the right way, everyone else are bigots and racists. It's an aggressive religion, a cult even.

That’s only the woke people you hear about. I consider myself pretty woke and the only woke thing I could imagine to demand from a workplace is sexual harassment policies with real teeth. (And not a he said she said scenario but Eg. Dont pinch the ass of your direct report against their consent or else you’re out of the door). I think there are people who take it too far just like there are people who take anything t…

It would be easier to listen to concerns about creeping wokeness if the alleged dangers were actually different and worse than the problems that already exist. In many states people are fired from their jobs for not being conservative, for being lgbt etc. It happens with full knowledge of the state and is completely legal; the media doesn't even bother trying to follow up. Worse than that: our prison system, our overseas military belligerence etc etc. Wokeness? Add it to the list I guess, but the only reason some people spend so much time screeching about it is because they have been lucky to avoid getting nailed by one of the many other long-lived dangers that continue to stalk our society.

It's human nature to ignore the excesses of your own tribe and focus on problems originating across the border, but when it's just pure hypocrisy (another feature of human nature) it's hard to really give a shit. If we were discussing an asteroid hurtling toward the planet I'd like to think we could reach some kind of rough consensus that it is indeed an imminent threat, although my confidence in even this contrived scenario playing out as one might hope has been significantly shaken the more time I spend around large groups of humans. When it comes to trying to mediate the culture war, while real injustices occur on both sides and should punished/prevented, the fact remains that justice is often slow or absent for many, if not most. The truly powerful in our society are conveniently immune from the petty struggles, happy to watch the little people tear each other apart over skin color or religion or anything at all.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#773

Post by notacoward » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 3:36 PM UTC

busymom0 wrote: post #670

notacoward wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It's selection bias, ruthlessly exploited by people who have their own agenda and therefore an interest in focusing attention on the worst excesses of those who resist (continued) imposition of that agenda. What might that agenda be? Here's a hint. A certain "shadow docket" decision by the US Supreme Court has been in the news a bit lately. As it turns out, all five of the concurring justices are Catholic, a…

Selection bias? My province in Ontario literally changed the curriculum for mathematics claiming mathematics is subjective and colonial and all other woke nonsense. You mean to tell me I am not seeing what I am really seeing?

Thank you for providing an example of the selective presentation (exploiting selection bias) I was talking about. Here's the official version of the current Ontario curriculum guidelines, for anyone to read.

https://www.dcp.edu.gov.on.ca/en/curriculum/secondary-mathem...

There's a bunch of stuff about how the teaching of mathematics has been used to normalize racism and marginalization etc., but that's not the same as mathematics itself being subjective or colonial. (Personally I think even the stuff about teaching is kind of garbage because it's vague and non-actionable, but that's a different discussion.) A cherry-picked, exaggerated description like that is exactly the kind of selective presentation I was talking about. You have received a distorted view, and are now passing that on to others.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#774

Post by unclebucknasty » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 3:36 PM UTC

naasking wrote: post #727

dwpdwpdwpdwpdwp wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wording ‘divisive’ in all these laws is interesting. Why is this the operative word here? Banning ‘concepts’ on the grounds that they are ‘divisive’ is some of the one of the most Orwellian language I’ve ever read. It just seems like laws with the title ‘propagation of divisive concepts prohibited’ will evolve to an even expanding list of thought crime. This isn’t a comment on how race should be treated and discu…

This is a good point. Then again, the ideologies they're fighting as "divisive" have been pushing the position that some ideas can be harmful. So it seems like their own rhetoric is now being used against them, and if they don't like it, maybe they should rethink their own positions on this particular issue.

>their own rhetoric is now being used against them...maybe they should rethink their own positions

Make no mistake, it's always been about whose ideas should prevail.

"Cancel culture" is not a one-sided phenomenon.

But, pushing back against it is an effective way to silence demands for consequences.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#775

Post by aeoleonn » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 3:37 PM UTC

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #327

It's just a shift from older, less flexible values like family, church etc to the more open minded approach, "do as you like". Nothing wrong with people having tattoos everywhere, green or violet hair, non conformist clothing and views. Let them be, let them express and find themselves. I am the shave every day suit kinda guy and will remain so, but if someone chooses to be different or wants to complain about new wo…

I think you mean

- "the more open minded ... as long as it's open to what I like and closed to what I don't"

- "do as you like as long as I approve"

And I'm not speaking to you-- But rather extrapolating these as they represent the fake tolerance of the anti-traditional neomarxists-- SJWs who typically exhibit substantial fascist traits

* --> See those downvotes? Point proven :) The hypocrisy of those who claim tolerance of different perspectives *

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#776

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 3:37 PM UTC

darkerside wrote: post #454

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under the woke philosophy the criterion for deserving forgiveness still exists but is changed. In classical Christian philosophy, forgiveness requires contrition whereas under woke philosophy forgiveness requires powerlessness . This is often misinterpreted as an absence of forgiveness because no amount of contrition seems to abate the condemnation.

Not sure who downvoted you, but I found this to be an incredibly insightful comment. Possibly one that conservative (anti-woke) voices might benefit from hearing. Not that it seems like you were taking a side here.

[deleted]

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#777

Post by rayiner » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 3:38 PM UTC

BEEdwards wrote: post #740

JanneVee wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your response to a person with brown skin say that their experience doesn't matter? Why doesn't it matter because you read that they where lucky or that you experienced something different?

I say it from my own personal experience as a light skinned black person, I've seen how the police laser focus on my dark skinned friends and, I've seen the subtle differences in behavior displayed by white people in their presents. So yes they are lucky to have not experienced it.

I suspect that it’s not luck, but rather than the racism that exists in America isn’t directed at brown people generally, but Black people specifically. And while I’m fully supportive of combatting that, I’m not okay with schools telling my brown daughter that she faces systemic racism that she doesn’t. We shouldn’t project the Black American experience and pedagogy designed around that onto all brown people, which is what we’re on the path to doing. It’s not actually true and we should be truthful with our kids. By 2060, 40% of the country will be Hispanic or Asian. Our overall approach to race issues must accommodate their reality as well.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#778

Post by forgingahead » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 3:40 PM UTC

colinmhayes wrote: post #714

rayiner wrote: post #549

Our political and cultural institutions are dominated by people who attended those elite schools. This is the next batch of folks who will be doing your IPO paperwork: https://freebeacon.com/campus/northwestern-law-administrator... Now it’s making the jump to K-12. My second grader is apparently learning how to develop an “identity” around her “skin tone” (according to an email from her teacher). This has had the pre…

I went to a decently progressive elementary school, and the kids were absolutely racist by second grade. It'd be nice if we could just ignore race, but that's not reality yet.

Perhaps their racism was a result of "progressive" schools and parents of kids in those schools seeing everything through a lens of race or other identity markers?

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#779

Post by notacoward » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 3:40 PM UTC

busymom0 wrote: post #668

lemmsjid wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the answer to your question is actually answered in your first paragraph. In the same way that you believe all Christians shouldn’t be judged by those who haven’t “practiced what they’ve preached”, consider that your understanding of “woke” people might be tainted by the fact that whatever media you are consuming might be focusing on the ones who also don’t practice what they preach. In other words, any movem…

It isn’t just the media. Here in Canada, the government literally passed the mathematics curriculum which claimed nonsense like “mathematics is subjective” and “mathematics is colonial”. I emailed them a long rant that I would rather ship my future kids to India for a better education instead of the nonsense they are teaching. So no, it isn’t just some media. Nor do I follow corporate news.

No, they didn't. Here's the real thing again.

https://www.dcp.edu.gov.on.ca/en/curriculum/secondary-mathem...

My (slightly) more detailed response is here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28415992

Stop spreading misinformation.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#780

Post by jrm4 » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 3:42 PM UTC

I hate the phrase, because people on the other side use it to conflate longstanding serious thought and action on the matters with young naive liberal chatter.

That being said, the easiest way to cut through most of it is to look toward people who have dealt with this sort of thing most of their lives, and "older black professionals" nearly always fit the bill.

There's an unfortunate 'survival of the fittest' bent to this -- i.e. if they're still in the workforce and/or politics, they've already survived a process that harshly punishes people who aren't good at it.