Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

451–460 of 1001 posts

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#451

Post by AbrahamParangi »

p0d wrote: post #340

As a christian I believe in mercy and grace. And yes, many of us 'believers' have not practised what we preached. Many of us do try however not to be hypocrites. Here's my question. Where is mercy and grace in the midst of wokeness? I want you to believe my christian message but I will not force you to do so. I don't want to introduce laws to force you to believe what I believe. I don't want you to lose your job beca…

Under the woke philosophy the criterion for deserving forgiveness still exists but is changed. In classical Christian philosophy, forgiveness requires contrition whereas under woke philosophy forgiveness requires powerlessness.

This is often misinterpreted as an absence of forgiveness because no amount of contrition seems to abate the condemnation.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#452

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

clusterfish wrote: post #421
sandworm101 wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> don't want you to lose your job because you don't agree with me. But lots of people want that power. It is within living memory that people could be fired or denied employment based on thier religion. Many today still want thier religion beliefs to be enforced against believers and non-believers alike (abortion, education, marriage, adoption, right to die etc). Not every person of faith is so liberal about the aff…

> But lots of people want that power. And most of us agree that it's bad. But most of us somehow don't agree that forcing wokeness on others is bad. Because the woke ones can't possibly imagine being wrong. Theirs is the right way, everyone else are bigots and racists. It's an aggressive religion, a cult even.

That’s only the woke people you hear about. I consider myself pretty woke and the only woke thing I could imagine to demand from a workplace is sexual harassment policies with real teeth. (And not a he said she said scenario but Eg. Dont pinch the ass of your direct report against their consent or else you’re out of the door).

I think there are people who take it too far just like there are people who take anything too far. But clearly to me wokeness hasn’t stopped Eg. Blizzard-Activision for all their woke PR so I’m skeptical that wokeness has nearly as much influence as is often implied.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#453

Post by sandworm101 »

clusterfish wrote: post #421
sandworm101 wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> don't want you to lose your job because you don't agree with me. But lots of people want that power. It is within living memory that people could be fired or denied employment based on thier religion. Many today still want thier religion beliefs to be enforced against believers and non-believers alike (abortion, education, marriage, adoption, right to die etc). Not every person of faith is so liberal about the aff…

> But lots of people want that power. And most of us agree that it's bad. But most of us somehow don't agree that forcing wokeness on others is bad. Because the woke ones can't possibly imagine being wrong. Theirs is the right way, everyone else are bigots and racists. It's an aggressive religion, a cult even.

Because wokeness is not enforced by the state. It is a matter for individuals and companies. No swords are involved.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#454

Post by darkerside »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #451
p0d wrote: post #340

As a christian I believe in mercy and grace. And yes, many of us 'believers' have not practised what we preached. Many of us do try however not to be hypocrites. Here's my question. Where is mercy and grace in the midst of wokeness? I want you to believe my christian message but I will not force you to do so. I don't want to introduce laws to force you to believe what I believe. I don't want you to lose your job beca…

Under the woke philosophy the criterion for deserving forgiveness still exists but is changed. In classical Christian philosophy, forgiveness requires contrition whereas under woke philosophy forgiveness requires powerlessness . This is often misinterpreted as an absence of forgiveness because no amount of contrition seems to abate the condemnation.

Not sure who downvoted you, but I found this to be an incredibly insightful comment. Possibly one that conservative (anti-woke) voices might benefit from hearing. Not that it seems like you were taking a side here.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#455

Post by UK-Al05 »

gurumeditations wrote: post #441

This thread is filled with an unbelievable amount of vile ignorance and hatred against Trans and Gay people. This is why straight people and non-trans people need to shut up when it comes to those respective topics, because you have no fucking idea what you’re talking about. I wish I could see the faces of the commenters saying this evil hate and ignorance. I bet it’s many immigrants from regressive cultures like in…

I'm gay, and I have no idea what you seeing in this thread to see you react like this.

I saw the odd comment, but theyve got lots of counter arguments.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#456

Post by jasonlotito »

FiberBundle wrote: post #390
yawaworht1978 wrote: post #327

It's just a shift from older, less flexible values like family, church etc to the more open minded approach, "do as you like". Nothing wrong with people having tattoos everywhere, green or violet hair, non conformist clothing and views. Let them be, let them express and find themselves. I am the shave every day suit kinda guy and will remain so, but if someone chooses to be different or wants to complain about new wo…

Some, even most, of the goals of that movement are commendable, with the exception of the more idealistic goals such as equality of outcome. What I find worrying, however, are the tactics that are used to accomplish those goals. I find it hard to understand how people do not see how discriminating against other people because of their views is not the right approach to solve discrimination.

What would you suggest that wasn’t tried before? Conversations, education, peaceful protests, etc. None worked as well as this.

If someone is punching you in the face every single day, and nothing you try that’s non violent works, but suddenly you get results when you push back, wouldn’t you employ that method? Sure, it hurts the person punching you, but they were punching you.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#457

Post by CodeGlitch »

joconde wrote: post #133
SunlightEdge wrote: post #109

On a related point, what I'm uncertain about are the reasons for the increase in transgender kids in the west. I understand there's been a massive increase in cases for transmen in the UK and USA for example. Is this because we can identify these conditions much better now? Maybe. I don't have the background to say for sure. There is a real fear in society though that woke schools of thought are a harmful influence t…

Alternative explanation: there have always been as many transgender kids, but they hid it because they knew they'd get bullied by everyone, including their own parents.

Alternative explanation: like previous social rebellions like punks, goths, etc... It is "fashionable" and driven by the trends of the time.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#458

Post by kortilla »

lemmsjid wrote: post #358
p0d wrote: post #340

As a christian I believe in mercy and grace. And yes, many of us 'believers' have not practised what we preached. Many of us do try however not to be hypocrites. Here's my question. Where is mercy and grace in the midst of wokeness? I want you to believe my christian message but I will not force you to do so. I don't want to introduce laws to force you to believe what I believe. I don't want you to lose your job beca…

I think the answer to your question is actually answered in your first paragraph. In the same way that you believe all Christians shouldn’t be judged by those who haven’t “practiced what they’ve preached”, consider that your understanding of “woke” people might be tainted by the fact that whatever media you are consuming might be focusing on the ones who also don’t practice what they preach. In other words, any movem…

But the core principles of being woke require ruthlessness (“silence is violence”, etc).

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#459

Post by tux3 »

clusterfish wrote: post #421
sandworm101 wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> don't want you to lose your job because you don't agree with me. But lots of people want that power. It is within living memory that people could be fired or denied employment based on thier religion. Many today still want thier religion beliefs to be enforced against believers and non-believers alike (abortion, education, marriage, adoption, right to die etc). Not every person of faith is so liberal about the aff…

> But lots of people want that power. And most of us agree that it's bad. But most of us somehow don't agree that forcing wokeness on others is bad. Because the woke ones can't possibly imagine being wrong. Theirs is the right way, everyone else are bigots and racists. It's an aggressive religion, a cult even.

Most of us are good, and the few extremists don't represent who we are.

Most of them can't possibly imagine being wrong. They're fanatical cultists.

Here's the problem: These two paragraphs are unrestricted opinions, it's a feeling that anyone could have about anyone, and there's nothing factual about it.

This is a feeling that's not rooted in falsifiable observations, and so, there is nothing that prevents the same thought from applying to any other group of people.

And that's where the symmetry hurts. Maybe they, the other people, maybe they feel the same way about you? That you can't imagine being wrong, that you're fanatical.

Wouldn't that make them hypocrites, for painting all those people with the same brushtroke? For making generalizations about people without bringing anything to support those? Without any desire to see yourself proven wrong?

I think that someone's words would suffuse hypocrisy, were they to neglect disloging the beam in their own eye, before looking for the mote in their brother's eye.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#460

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

MrsPeaches wrote: post #237
concordDance wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What we have in Wokeism is a pseudo-politics, in that, it make no material demands. A plain reading of this seems false. Wokism definitely makes demands.

material [1] demands. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_materialism

I can immediately think of one woke policy that is considered to be a material demand: UBI, also Medicare for all and reparations for black people.
Post reply on HN