Arm China Has Gone Rogue • Hacker News Board

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#521

Post by sennight » Sat, Aug 28, 2021, 1:43 AM UTC

twobitshifter wrote: post #446

bserge wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it, all current ASIC miners are from China.

Chinese get paid to build the ASIC but instead of delivering as promised, they just keep it for themselves and mine with the designs.

Close. If they just ghosted the client it would have been bad for that client (a managed group buy, from what I remember), but word would have spread quickly and the most they'd have had to show for it was a single revision zero ASIC for hashing SHA256 - no big deal in the grand scheme of things. Instead they churned out as many as they possibly could, only partially fulfilling orders in drips and drabs - and with a quality that made one wonder how low they were in the binning hierarchy. For some strange reason the fulfillment rate would drastically improve during periods of heightened uncertainty in bitcoin's exchange rate... Anyway, by stringing designers along like that they maintained access to later optimizations in design revisions.

It was really weird to watch these early events unfold, because it provided the kind of satisfaction that accompanies the reinforcement of prior held positions - but tempered with the knowledge that you'd eventually be forced to take a bite from same shitsandwich.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#522

Post by cletus » Sat, Aug 28, 2021, 1:44 AM UTC

googlerthrowway wrote: post #331

cletus wrote: post #91

People need to wake up to the fact that China being a potential market of >1B people is an illusion. This is particularly relevant for any tech company. Let me spell it out: Chinese companies are extensions of the state. They are tools of Chinese foreign and trade policy. What cooperation you think US companies provide the US government, it is nothing in comparison. The Chinese government will ensure that no Western…

>Here's where I think this will first come to a head: I believe the US government will at some point soon decide that any person born in mainland China is a security risk as far as working on anything national security related. I was at Google during the Project Dragonfly revelations. My name is on this petition [0]. Internally, I expressed discomfort at cooperation with a state that (among other things) sets up cove…

I worked at Google years ago when in response to what most believe was a Chinese state-sanctioned hack, Google decided to pull out of China. Many believed (myself included) that this pull out was largely driven by Sergey Brin. This all happened in the 1-2 years before I joined but I like many greatly respected that stance.

It was sad to see (from the outside this time) this principle get thrown aside with Dragonfly. What's worse is that Google will never be allowed to succeed in China so there was literally no point.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#523

Post by cma » Sat, Aug 28, 2021, 1:49 AM UTC

ruytlm wrote: post #497

nabla9 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China repeats Japan 1950-1980. Focus on incremental innovation, instead of big leaps. They started at the bottom rung of the quality chain. They are constantly climbing it up but the speed seems slow. Then suddenly they are in par or little ahead. Chinese are already within a spitting distance in most technologies. Semiconductors have some technology bottlenecks like EUV machines that are hard to replicate. Chinese f…

Interestingly, Japan also had very lax IP laws as it was catching up to the rest of the world, which basically enabled it to do what China has been doing, and only really shifted to strong IP protections as it started to develop its own tech and IP that it wanted to export.

The US developed similarly:

> He learned of the American interest in developing similar machines, and he was also aware of British law against exporting the designs. He therefore memorized as much as he could and departed for New York in 1789. Some people of Belper called him "Slater the Traitor", as they considered his move a betrayal of the town where many earned their living at Strutt's mills.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater#American_factori...

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#524

Post by cletus » Sat, Aug 28, 2021, 1:51 AM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #159

cletus wrote: post #91

People need to wake up to the fact that China being a potential market of >1B people is an illusion. This is particularly relevant for any tech company. Let me spell it out: Chinese companies are extensions of the state. They are tools of Chinese foreign and trade policy. What cooperation you think US companies provide the US government, it is nothing in comparison. The Chinese government will ensure that no Western…

> Here's where I think this will first come to a head: I believe the US government will at some point soon decide that any person born in mainland China is a security risk as far as working on anything national security related. This will probably extend to key industries of national importance too (eg SpaceX). Even naturalization or birth in America can't erase ties to Chinese entities, through family links for inst…

This is an important point.

I believe Chinese law is you can't hold dual citizenship so anyone with Chinese citizenship who becomes a naturalized US citizen loses their Chinese citizenship.

A shallow look at that may lead one to think there's no security issue. It's actually the opposite.

My sense is that this allows the Chinese government to entice former citizens with restoration of their citizenship if they come home, bringing all their skills and IP with them.

I'm not even sure this is explicit. It's simply understood that if you have knowledge in key industries the door is always open to your return to China.

Or it may be much more active and quid pro quo. Who knows?

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#525

Post by nzmsv » Sat, Aug 28, 2021, 1:52 AM UTC

leephillips wrote: post #317

nzmsv wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go look up the actual requirement for FARA before spewing nonsense.

The FARA act covers a person who “solicits, collects, disburses, or dispenses contributions, loans, money, or other things of value within the United States” while acting in the interests of a “foreign government, a foreign political party, any person outside the United States ... and any entity organized under the laws of a foreign country or having its principal place of business in a foreign country.”

But an individual person is not a foreign entity, especially not if they are a US citizen.

There is the loophole for "representing interests of a foreign principal before US government officials" though, so I guess this is written broadly enough to snag anyone who may step on some toes.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#526

Post by downWidOutaFite » Sat, Aug 28, 2021, 1:59 AM UTC

refenestrator wrote: post #488

pfraze wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. Not only have Americans pointed out their disagreement with Chinese government for as long as I’m aware, one of our core foreign policy concepts was that doing commerce with China would push them to liberalize and adopt more Western values in their government. As another commenter noted, what’s happened so far is that the quality of life has improved for so many Chinese that they seem willing to accept this…

American foreign policy was wrong-headed because it envisioned China happily assimilating into a world order which recognized US as rightful hegemon of all oceans and most land. This was more of an unspoken assumption, the spoken version had all the stuff you said. Why would they accept that? There's a billion and a half of them and they work harder. They're going to have regional hegemony over their area as a matter…

It was wrong headed because it gave a lifeline to an immoral authoritarian government. Without being allowed to participate in the WTO and the west's world order CCP would have collapsed by the end of the 90s. Once a democratic rule of law government took over then they could have become just as prosperous but without the evil power structure that keeps is here to stay. It would be more like Taiwan or South Korea or Hong Kong pre-National Security Law, prosperous and free.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#527

Post by AtlasBarfed » Sat, Aug 28, 2021, 2:04 AM UTC

nebula8804 wrote: post #472

comrade-hn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the most competitive products in some categories are from China, for example in drones. It's only a matter of time until they work their way up the chain. Remember the Tim Cook quote how it's difficult to fill a room with machinists in US, while in China you can fill 3 football fields with them.

What does the west do? Tech is the only real growth industry left in the US. Right now 80% of the county slaves away in dead end jobs to cater to the remaining 20% white collar professional+capital class. That 20% seems like its going to get smaller :/ Eventually something has got to give in this country. Soon nothing will be left but a hollow husk.

And Nukes.

I remember right around 2000 George Will bloviated about how Russia was a third world nation by economy size, why do we treat them with such deference.

Psst George: They still have a LOT of nukes.

That might be us. A shell of a country with a failing economy, strong military, and huge number of nukes.

Of course right around then global warming might really start taking off and a billion or two people are starving and become refugees. Then we see what happened in the EU and Syria, but worldwide and 100x worse.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#528

Post by ap0110 » Sat, Aug 28, 2021, 2:05 AM UTC

factorialboy wrote: post #264

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if China is in China, they can follow Chinese law. Once they come out of China, to do business with the West, then that excuse doesn't cut it. (Just like the way that Western companies have to follow Chinese law to do business in China.)

I slap when when you come over to my home, because it's rule of my home. When you invite me, I take advantage of your hospitality and enjoy some tea.

There is reason I'm willing to be slapped by you. May be is your daughter or w Just like some company do tech transfer in exchange for access to the market.

You are welcome to take advantage of my hospitality and tea. But do you know what is in the tea? You might get addicted to the tea that you willing to obey me. Just like sanction ( weaponizing dollar )

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#529

Post by spats1990 » Sat, Aug 28, 2021, 2:06 AM UTC

ggm wrote: post #316

Not entirely defending things but observing that if you are of a view that IPR is basically absurd, "stealing" it may be equally absurd, but rational. After you've stolen it, it's still "there" except for the exclusivity. Chips will still exist, fab lines will still run. Profits have tanked, sure. Innovation is probably stifled but that's an opportunity loss. There's a long history of stealing IPR at the state level…

Thank you. I'm surprised by the tone of some of the comments here. The linked article's framing of the story is outright flamebait.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#530

Post by dnautics » Sat, Aug 28, 2021, 2:09 AM UTC

smhost wrote: post #483

anm89 wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I checked the US wasn't harvesting organs, running concentration camps, blatantly committing genocide and ethnic cleansing. Yes, CCP bad.

In fact, the US is doing all of those things.

Nope, it's only doing #2, and in far smaller numbers.