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After criticism, Apple to only seek abuse images flagged in multiple nations

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Re: After criticism, Apple to only seek abuse images flagged in multiple nations

#91

Post by hypothesis »

goodells wrote: post #65
heavyset_go wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This problem is the capability, not what it's used for. Any such capability will be abused by new use cases be it terrorism, drug trafficking, human trafficking or whatever. Plus there will inevitably be unauthorized access. Apple even says it themselves[1]: > This program is ambitious, and protecting children is an important responsibility. These efforts will evolve and expand over time. [1] https://www.apple.com/…

I can't wait until /child-safety 404s or redirects to /safety and there's a wall of marketing blurb (possibly only in Chinese at first) that explains how 'national security' concerns are reported to the CCP. This has totally pushed me over the edge, though I'll admit I was oblivious to begin with. My plan is to replace the MacBooks with a Thinkpad P15 gen 2 running Ubuntu and replace the iPhone with something running…

I also note that /child-safety page is only(?) accessible from outside search/link. There is no corresponding press article. This thing is just floating in the air somehow…

Re: After criticism, Apple to only seek abuse images flagged in multiple nations

#92

Post by n8cpdx »

k2enemy wrote: post #87
cletus wrote: post #28

And... Apple misses the point of the criticism completely. This problem is the capability, not what it's used for. Any such capability will be abused by new use cases be it terrorism, drug trafficking, human trafficking or whatever. Plus there will inevitably be unauthorized access. The only way to prevent all this is for the system not to exist. I don't buy into theories that Apple is being pressured or coerced on a…

> This problem is the capability > The only way to prevent all this is for the system not to exist. I've been having trouble following this argument over the last week. Isn't it clear that the capability already exists? Whether or not Apple goes through with its CSAM plan, the capability is evidently there. In other words, since Apple is a closed system, the capability was there before they announced the CSAM plans.…

There shouldn’t be a single line of code, or single binary blob, on my device that can compute these photo DNA hashes.

Apple could always go ahead and add that functionality in an update, but then there would be a big backlash and the opportunity to not update or switch providers.

Re: After criticism, Apple to only seek abuse images flagged in multiple nations

#93

Post by AnthonyMouse »

finolex1 wrote: post #58
cletus wrote: post #28

And... Apple misses the point of the criticism completely. This problem is the capability, not what it's used for. Any such capability will be abused by new use cases be it terrorism, drug trafficking, human trafficking or whatever. Plus there will inevitably be unauthorized access. The only way to prevent all this is for the system not to exist. I don't buy into theories that Apple is being pressured or coerced on a…

Unfortunately, I don't think this has been anything more than a small blip to Apple's reputation. If I were not on Hackernews (like 99+% of Apple users), I would have either not heard or given second thought to this move.

Bad press on tech sites is the worst thing for a tech company's reputation. They're the people other people go to when deciding what to buy.

When Uncle Bob asks the family computer engineer about the pros and cons of a given platform and hears that one of them scans your device and a false positive could get you arrested for child pornography, Uncle Bob may develop an aversion to that platform.

Re: After criticism, Apple to only seek abuse images flagged in multiple nations

#94

Post by hef19898 »

goodells wrote: post #65
heavyset_go wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This problem is the capability, not what it's used for. Any such capability will be abused by new use cases be it terrorism, drug trafficking, human trafficking or whatever. Plus there will inevitably be unauthorized access. Apple even says it themselves[1]: > This program is ambitious, and protecting children is an important responsibility. These efforts will evolve and expand over time. [1] https://www.apple.com/…

I can't wait until /child-safety 404s or redirects to /safety and there's a wall of marketing blurb (possibly only in Chinese at first) that explains how 'national security' concerns are reported to the CCP. This has totally pushed me over the edge, though I'll admit I was oblivious to begin with. My plan is to replace the MacBooks with a Thinkpad P15 gen 2 running Ubuntu and replace the iPhone with something running…

Same here. Just that I'll get rid of MS and Google. That means CalyxOS on my Pixel 2 and some version of Linux on my private ThinkPad. Once I find time that is, which to be honest can take a while. I think the last time I used my private laptop was over a month ago. Phone is different, but again time constraints. It will happen so.

Re: After criticism, Apple to only seek abuse images flagged in multiple nations

#95

Post by lethologica »

nimbius wrote: post #90
cletus wrote: post #28

And... Apple misses the point of the criticism completely. This problem is the capability, not what it's used for. Any such capability will be abused by new use cases be it terrorism, drug trafficking, human trafficking or whatever. Plus there will inevitably be unauthorized access. The only way to prevent all this is for the system not to exist. I don't buy into theories that Apple is being pressured or coerced on a…

I just have to wonder who green-lit this idea to begin with. Every single other company is riding a post-covid tidal wave of sales. as WFH becomes a reality for so many workers, apple products are positioned to really take center stage for a massive segment of consumers... and then this. Apple intentionally injects uncertainty and controversy? what were they thinking?? sure its just phones right now but im sure mac u…

How much of an impact do you think this will have on the non tech savvy user though? Most people already don't care about ad tracking, location tracking, etc. I think your standard user will just shrug this off and go "eh, I have nothing to hide and it's good for the kids"

Re: After criticism, Apple to only seek abuse images flagged in multiple nations

#96

Post by frickinLasers »

heavyset_go wrote: post #73
norov wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only explanation that makes sense to me is that they are doing huge damage to their reputation and trust for bigger reasons. Perhaps there are international or national security issues they are told to comply with that are not quite in the public view yet.

Occam's razor says they aren't playing 11th dimensional chess and that they just fucked up. It happens.

"Build this. Don't explain why" is not chess. It would be a perfectly logical order from the power structures Snowden exposed.

eta: It makes way more sense to me than Apple actually thinking this was a good idea.

Re: After criticism, Apple to only seek abuse images flagged in multiple nations

#97

Post by treesprite82 »

istingray wrote: post #5

What happened to it being USA only? This sounds like one of those errors where they double down on it and call it a "solution". Sounds like they're misunderstanding people's concerns pretty badly. Sorry if we miscommunicated. Kill this "feature" yesterday. Thanks Tim!

USA-only referred to which accounts would be scanned. Whereas it's theoretically a good thing to require the CSAM hashes to be verified by organisations in multiple countries (rather than a single US government-tied organisation that dismissed privacy concerns as "the screeching voices of the minority").

I'm hoping for something along the lines of "iOS will reject hashes that haven't been signed by independent organisations in US, Russia, China, and India" to make it very difficult to push through anything except actual CSAM. Won't be much of a guarantee if it's just Apple saying "we promise we're only using hashes that have been checked by Australia and the US".

Re: After criticism, Apple to only seek abuse images flagged in multiple nations

#98

Post by n8cpdx »

pembrook wrote: post #72

This is by far the biggest misstep of Tim Cook’s tenure at Apple thus far. If they don’t kill this program soon, it’s going to overshadow the entire upcoming iPhone event, and will follow Apple around like a dark cloud for years. I can see the headlines now: “New iPhone launches amid massive new privacy concerns.” Anytime someone praises Apple for privacy, anywhere on the internet, there will be a tidal wave of peopl…

The folks who choose iPhone in part because of a perception of relative privacy and respect for the user (like myself) will think twice.

My two concerns are that Android as an ecosystem is almost certainly still worse, and that the vast majority of users will not care.

I’m tempted to jailbreak my devices going forward, although I guess the folks at Apple would say that makes me a pedophile.

Edit: seeking recommendations for Android phones with strong performance and reasonable privacy protections. Ideally one that can be used without a Google account.

Re: After criticism, Apple to only seek abuse images flagged in multiple nations

#99

Post by laserlight »

cletus wrote: post #28

And... Apple misses the point of the criticism completely. This problem is the capability, not what it's used for. Any such capability will be abused by new use cases be it terrorism, drug trafficking, human trafficking or whatever. Plus there will inevitably be unauthorized access. The only way to prevent all this is for the system not to exist. I don't buy into theories that Apple is being pressured or coerced on a…

> The only way to prevent all this is for the system not to exist.

I'll go one step further. Apple should have implemented a system that makes these kind of backdoors impossible. I don't know how or if such a system is possible, but given Apple's track record, they are in a position to attempt it.

Re: After criticism, Apple to only seek abuse images flagged in multiple nations

#100

Post by heavyset_go »

hahajk wrote: post #46
okamiueru wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also the issue that closed door arbitration of heinous crimes are the perfect tool to put away dissidents. A very convenient excuse to avoid proper checks and balances. "No, you cannot verify, because you aren't allowed to look at the illegal material that proves their guilt"

Is this actually true? If I was arrested for an image on my phone, would no one in the judge/jury team be allowed to see the image that was flagged? I understand it’s allegedly contraband, but if I were a judge I don’t think I’d take an algorithm’s word for it.

> it’s allegedly contraband, but if I were a judge I don’t think I’d take an algorithm’s word for it.

The prosecution can hire more expert witnesses with excessive credentials than you can, and they will explain how there's a one in one trillion possibility that the system is wrong, and that the defendant is assuredly a monster.

Juries eat that up when it comes to bogus DNA, bite mark, fingerprint, or other forensic evidence claims. Most people think computers can't be wrong or biased, and people's perceptions of what can be deemed reasonable doubts or not seem to shift when computers are involved, or when smart, credentialed people tell them their reasonable doubts aren't reasonable at all because of that one in a trillion chance of the computers being wrong.

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