Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence • Hacker News Board

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#271

Post by krageon » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:20 PM UTC

jeswin wrote: post #254

quickthrowman wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Patronizing: you know what's patronizing? The notion that this kid just doesn't understand the realpolitik. Of course he does: it just punched him in the face. He's fighting it. I respect him for that. I disagree. His Chinese girlfriend was begging him to stop, but he carried on. It’s either hubris or not realizing what China is willing to do to stop people from criticizing it. He was also enrolled in a Chinese uni…

So should he just shut up, then? It's scary if most people feel that way. There was also no risk to his GF. At worst, the relationship ends - it's not like the CCP is going to go after her (she did ask him to stop).

> it's not like the CCP is going to go after her

This is not a reasonable assumption and once it's throw out it becomes clear this boy was endangering others as well as himself by doing something ill-advised and unplanned.

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#272

Post by krageon » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

ChemSpider wrote: post #180

bmn__ wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not pass the smell test. This is not an error one would make. Imagine one gets an email from Z, X-Y , then why would one describe this as "emails (ed: plural!) from China"? My theory that fits the evidence given is that the professor is withholding the real "angry emails from China" because she thinks if those are published, then she definitely won't get a travel visum anymore and thus negatively impact her c…

I agree. This take is supported by the fact that the Prof refuses to reveal the email address of the Canadian student. My guess is similar to yours. She received emails e. g. from a Chinese consulate but is not allowed to reveal that fact - so she made up this "Canadian student" story.

The likelihood that any consulate bothers itself to tell some uni student to shut up is extremely low.

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#273

Post by brigandish » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

jeswin wrote: post #254

quickthrowman wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Patronizing: you know what's patronizing? The notion that this kid just doesn't understand the realpolitik. Of course he does: it just punched him in the face. He's fighting it. I respect him for that. I disagree. His Chinese girlfriend was begging him to stop, but he carried on. It’s either hubris or not realizing what China is willing to do to stop people from criticizing it. He was also enrolled in a Chinese uni…

So should he just shut up, then? It's scary if most people feel that way. There was also no risk to his GF. At worst, the relationship ends - it's not like the CCP is going to go after her (she did ask him to stop).

I'm not one for turning up my nose to criticising government's like China's but the reality is that freedom of speech is not an important aspect to Chinese society (including many others) and if one wants to work there, travel there, and not endanger people there as he has done with his girlfriend's family, then one needs to at least consider the consequences for critical speech and whether they're worth bearing.

> There was also no risk to his GF. At worst, the relationship ends - it's not like the CCP is going to go after her (she did ask him to stop).

I'm not sure why you think being so apparently reasonable is also something her government and its supporters care about?

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#274

Post by bobthechef » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:28 PM UTC

Somewhat tangential, but it's interesting that this is in St. Gallen. St. Gallen is known for the so-called St. Gallen Mafia which counted among its members the now defrocked sex predator Theodore McCarrick among others who negotiated deals for the Vatican under Francis in China and had a reputation for being pro-CCP in his leanings. Makes me wonder if there is some "Chinese representation" specifically in St. Gallen? Take this quote from the article:

"For the last eight years, St. Gallen has also been home to a «China Competence Center,» the aim of which is to «strengthen and deepen productive relations with China»."

(Frankly, this sort of content is being censored in the US by BigTech also, so...)

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#275

Post by jorblumesea » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:28 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #5

> In the United States too, a quarter of the country’s Confucius Institutes have been shut down in recent years. Universities no longer wanted to give legitimacy to an institution that defended fundamentally different values. Well, that makes a statement about the purpose of a university.

"values" here being basically a proxy instrument of the CCP and a surveillance network to keep Chinese nationals in line.

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#276

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:28 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#277

Post by kps » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:32 PM UTC

HWR_14 wrote: post #270

eplanit wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, many (predominantly on the Left) are now seeing liberal free speech as outmoded. Though he's not a serious person, former Prince Harry (who, with his wife, use their celebrity to champion Progressive causes) recently called the 1st Amendment "bonkers"[1]. Even The Atlantic publishes its doubts about it.[2] My stepfather grew up Jewish in Germany in the early 20th century. He was 13 years old when Hitler became C…

> even former Prince Harry recently called the 1st Amendment "bonkers" Shocking! I'm starting to think we Americans are going to have to overthrow the British monarchy to protect our rights! > Even The Atlantic publishes its doubts about it. Unlike the Prince Henry thing (who cares), I read this one. The Atlantic says the exact opposite of what you say it does. It starts and ends firmly defending American style free…

A ‘better’ Atlantic article in this sense is https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/what-covid... subheaded “In the debate over freedom versus control of the global network, China was largely correct, and the U.S. was wrong.”

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#278

Post by geekfun » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:34 PM UTC

jjoonathan wrote: post #239

amrcnimgrnt wrote: post #175

To be clear, what happened to this kid is horrible and just demonstrates that we have to get serious on this problem. However this comment annoyed me: "«I'm in Switzerland, not China,» Gerber replied. «I can say what I want here.»" You can tell this kid grew up in the la-la land that is the West, particularly Europe. I find this comment to be an infuriating mix anivete and patronizing. For the naïveté Switzerland is…

Wow. Patronizing: you know what's patronizing? The notion that this kid simply doesn't understand the realpolitik. Of course he does: it just punched him in the face. He's fighting it. I respect him for that. Infuriating: you know what's infuriating? The person who claims to share the values this guy is standing up for but can't stop trash-talking him. Naïveté: you know what's naive? Thinking that rolling over and ac…

Oh, what u r saying here is patronizing. Before you start to criticize others or another country, shouldn't you do some basic justification or research. Free speech is not about just blindly saying whatever u want. That's irresponsible. Ppl should be responsible for whatever they say as grown man. When you are blaming China's behavior or any other country's behavior, do u see any proof abt those so-called bad behaviors? Or u just read some news and followed whatever ppl are saying. In addition, every country has its own problems and own culture. Try to respect others first. If there is improvement other should have, what is needed is constructive suggestion instead of patronizing blame. Indeed I am disappointed abt this student's behavior as he has studied in China for sometime and he made friends in China as well, he should have a good understanding abt the life there and would understand what had happened there during COVID. He could have been more responsible for what he tweeted.

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#279

Post by newbamboo » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

HWR_14 wrote: post #270

eplanit wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, many (predominantly on the Left) are now seeing liberal free speech as outmoded. Though he's not a serious person, former Prince Harry (who, with his wife, use their celebrity to champion Progressive causes) recently called the 1st Amendment "bonkers"[1]. Even The Atlantic publishes its doubts about it.[2] My stepfather grew up Jewish in Germany in the early 20th century. He was 13 years old when Hitler became C…

> even former Prince Harry recently called the 1st Amendment "bonkers" Shocking! I'm starting to think we Americans are going to have to overthrow the British monarchy to protect our rights! > Even The Atlantic publishes its doubts about it. Unlike the Prince Henry thing (who cares), I read this one. The Atlantic says the exact opposite of what you say it does. It starts and ends firmly defending American style free…

Disagree with your disagreement. The Atlantic article is casting shade on free speech. One only needs to read the headline, which is rightly or wrongly what most eyeballs will ever see. If a headline is “iPhones have a lot of problems” and then body of the article explains that “despite that they are still pretty good” then it fair to characterize it as the parent poster did IMO. No person ever has made the claim that free speech doesn’t have costs.

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#280

Post by wolverine876 » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:36 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #253

datameta wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also the following account of his experience in China, which certainly served as a greater pretext than the tweets of an account with 10 followers: > A Chinese professor there told him that his Ph.D. topic was «boring» – a euphemism for being too critical of the government. As a part of his fellowship, he also had to attend classes, and says today he couldn’t believe how much censorship took place in the course of ev…

I wouldn't want to be his sponsor either. It just shows either a complete misunderstanding of the power dynamics of an outsider doing research in China, or poor judgement.

> I wouldn't want to be his sponsor either. It just shows either a complete misunderstanding of the power dynamics of an outsider doing research in China, or poor judgement.

If your priorities are power dynamics, that would make sense. But there are other priorities, such as freedom of speech and open inquiry, which are more important, on which research and knowledge and freedom itself are based.