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Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

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Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#181

Post by germinalphrase »

emodendroket wrote: post #44
benjaminjosephw wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I thought you were about to object to the generalization of an end-usr denigrating HN perspective! Okay, even if it is "entitled" to expect something for nothing, it's dishonest not to be clear and upfront about the costs. In fact, if you think the entitlement is misplaced then it's really a failure of the service providers in educating the users rather than a failure of the users themselves. If you don't agree,…

I find it hard to believe in this day and age that people don’t understand the basic business model of these services.

Then (and please try to take this respectfully) you are out of touch. Many (most?) users don’t even know the services are collecting information at all.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#182

Post by coldtea »

emodendroket wrote: post #147
coldtea wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OK, that’s how you feel, and your choice. What do you think about people who wouldn’t mind being spied on in exchange for free or cheaper services? I'd feel like there's no universal God-given social contract that says they have a "right" to this, so I'd suggest we ban it anyways (just like they're free to suggest to allow it).

Couldn't you make the same argument about one's "right" to never be the subject of automated data collection?

Yes, haven't I already covered this angle by writing "just like they're free to suggest to allow it"?

You could make the same argument, and I would still argue to ban automated data collection.

That's how we make laws: we choose our sides of the argument, and (if we're lucky to live in a functional democracy) vote for it, or vote others that promote the same ideas.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#183

Post by p_j_w »

o8r3oFTZPE wrote: post #77
pdpi wrote: post #9

The next to last paragraph bothers me: On Hackernews, they think it's "entitlement" to think that you can use free email and search engines and expect not to be tracked. The main problem with this line of thinking is that even if you had the option to pay for your email and for your search engine, some G**gle executive somewhere would mention during a meeting that they could add an extra $X million of revenue if they…

Before Gmail, it used to be common to have an email account through one's ISP. No need for Google. IIRC, when Zuckerberg was testifying before Congress, one senator said his terms of service "sucked". Was he wrong.

>Before Gmail, it used to be common to have an email account through one's ISP. No need for Google.

I have internet at home through Spectrum, who offers email service. I don't use it, though, because the experience of ISP email, from my memory, was not good. Syncing up new devices with IMAP always took an annoyingly long time and my client would occasionally seem to forget that it had already got the headers for a message. The webmail was also shit. And then the SPAM filtering in Gmail at the time was miles better.

Perhaps things have improved since (this was 15 years ago, so I'd certainly hope so), but what you're remembering here as "the good old days" are etched in my mind as not being so good.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#184

Post by Tade0 »

JohnFen wrote: post #160
Tade0 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's assuming a maximally unregulated market is an ideal we're striving for, which isn't the case - at least not in the EU, and that is a good thing.

An unregulated market cannot be a free market.

For long at least and this is the reason why GP's assumption is doubly wrong.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#185

Post by marcosdumay »

emodendroket wrote: post #109
marcosdumay wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you set up Gmail on your phone you’re not being advertised to at all when you check your mail. Well, that's Google's choice, and Google's problem. The fact that they made this choice does not negate my right not to be tracked. Anyway, if free email providers were impossible without universal tracking (they existed before the web got extensive tracking, so you are wrong), they shouldn't exist. If you want emails…

Well your claim is a lot more expansive, really, because you’re saying that I have no right to sign up for the service myself because you don’t like the business model. There are some things that are so harmful that that makes sense but I don’t agree that Gmail and Facebook being in that category.

There's a reason the constitution of my country grants me a right to privacy...

And before anybody claims that it only restricts the government (it doesn't, it tasks the government into guaranteeing it), we have enough evidence that this kind of business model will be exploited to create an all encompassing gatekeeper for our society's communication, and at this point those companies are really paragovernamental entities, what no country should allow to exist.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#186

Post by emodendroket »

JohnFen wrote: post #169
emodendroket wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe in this day and age that people don’t understand the basic business model of these services.

Have a chat with people who aren't into computers and the internet. A huge percentage of them don't understand any of this (and don't even understand why they should understand).

Well, do they not understand, or are they indifferent? I suspect that many of us here confuse the latter for the former.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#188

Post by poidos »

personlurking wrote: post #132
poidos wrote: post #34

It gets grosser by the day. This is something that is endemic not just to ad-tech companies, but regular brick and mortar stores as well: it isn't enough to just be consuming, to actually be producing value for the business: they must monetize as many seconds of our attention as possible! If I'm buying gas, I'm being served ads via the little screen. If I'm at the grocery store, there's ads plastered onto my cart. Bu…

And now we can add getting ads while at the beach https://www.reddit.com/r/Miami/comments/oovnrj/only_in_miami...

It's disgusting! And it's not just the fucking boats, but planes overhead, constantly! (I've lived in M my whole life)

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#189

Post by poidos »

SCNP wrote: post #85
poidos wrote: post #34

It gets grosser by the day. This is something that is endemic not just to ad-tech companies, but regular brick and mortar stores as well: it isn't enough to just be consuming, to actually be producing value for the business: they must monetize as many seconds of our attention as possible! If I'm buying gas, I'm being served ads via the little screen. If I'm at the grocery store, there's ads plastered onto my cart. Bu…

Small band-aid on the repressive overall issue. You can usually push the second button down on the right-hand side to mute the mini-TV once the ads start playing. Not sure if you knew this already but I like to get the word out. And, maybe if they track how many times that button gets pressed they'll take a hint but I doubt it.

I didn't know that, thank you! This will be a big relief.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#190

Post by cblconfederate »

> Most people don't though. Given choice, most choose to not be spied on. Mindboggling.

I agree that tracking is oversellign itself, and sadly, the monopolization of ads has led to more and more, and worse ads being shown on websites. I do however want the sites i visit to make money, through advertising if possible. It's the most direct and easy way, since we are not yet allowed to have direct peer-to-peer payments on the web without 17 rent-seeking middlemen eating them up. As much as advertisers are to blame for pushing tracking vs other advertising channels, the payment gatekeepers are worse

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