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Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

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Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#151

Post by ThrustVectoring »

pdpi wrote: post #9

The next to last paragraph bothers me: On Hackernews, they think it's "entitlement" to think that you can use free email and search engines and expect not to be tracked. The main problem with this line of thinking is that even if you had the option to pay for your email and for your search engine, some G**gle executive somewhere would mention during a meeting that they could add an extra $X million of revenue if they…

"Commoditize your complement" means that cheap-to-provide yet valuable services will be offered for free, simply because it drives down the total cost of buying from their main profit center. Regardless of how valuable Amazon's open-source AWS-related tooling is to developers, it's still not in Amazon's interests to charge for the software.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#152

Post by emodendroket »

darkwater wrote: post #124
Cederfjard wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, that’s how you feel, and your choice. What do you think about people who wouldn’t mind being spied on in exchange for free or cheaper services? I’m personally with you, by the way, but I think it’s worth pointing out that it’s not the only valid position.

> What do you think about people who wouldn’t mind being spied on in exchange for free or cheaper services? I would really like to know how many people are actually like this, if they knew the full, total picture. There will be a lot, that's sure, but maybe not the overwhelming majority of uninformed people we have now.

By and large Snowden's revelations were met with a shrug. If that didn't bother people much, why would details about how Google makes money?

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#153

Post by npteljes »

poidos wrote: post #34

It gets grosser by the day. This is something that is endemic not just to ad-tech companies, but regular brick and mortar stores as well: it isn't enough to just be consuming, to actually be producing value for the business: they must monetize as many seconds of our attention as possible! If I'm buying gas, I'm being served ads via the little screen. If I'm at the grocery store, there's ads plastered onto my cart. Bu…

This YouTube video "HYPER-REALITY" perfectly illustrates this, for the augmented reality era: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJg02ivYzSs

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#154

Post by lotsofpulp »

hanniabu wrote: post #114
poidos wrote: post #34

It gets grosser by the day. This is something that is endemic not just to ad-tech companies, but regular brick and mortar stores as well: it isn't enough to just be consuming, to actually be producing value for the business: they must monetize as many seconds of our attention as possible! If I'm buying gas, I'm being served ads via the little screen. If I'm at the grocery store, there's ads plastered onto my cart. Bu…

What's worse is I feel like I can't trust anything I hear because I'm just trying to get sold something. Look at the FDA and it's recent extremely controversial approvals. If you can trust regulating boards anymore meant to keep you safe then there's nothing you can trust.

There is no perfect. Tossing away all the trust is also unnecessary. There will always be corruption and mistakes, but as long as there is transparency and correction, it is still a pretty good situation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/08/health/aduhelm-alzheimers...

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#155

Post by bachmeier »

pdpi wrote: post #9

The next to last paragraph bothers me: On Hackernews, they think it's "entitlement" to think that you can use free email and search engines and expect not to be tracked. The main problem with this line of thinking is that even if you had the option to pay for your email and for your search engine, some G**gle executive somewhere would mention during a meeting that they could add an extra $X million of revenue if they…

> Expecting a valuable service with absolutely no consideration in return absolutely is a case of entitlement.

Suppose an old couple had some gold stored in the backyard. I offer to cut their lawn for free. They gladly accept. In return, I grab eight ounces of gold after every mow.

Their son finds out what I've been doing and calls the cops. Would I be able to get away with this by claiming it's entitlement to expect me to cut someone else's lawn for free? Or would I be told that my fee needs to be based on an agreement by both parties and then sent to jail?

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#156

Post by JohnFen »

emodendroket wrote: post #109
marcosdumay wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you set up Gmail on your phone you’re not being advertised to at all when you check your mail. Well, that's Google's choice, and Google's problem. The fact that they made this choice does not negate my right not to be tracked. Anyway, if free email providers were impossible without universal tracking (they existed before the web got extensive tracking, so you are wrong), they shouldn't exist. If you want emails…

Well your claim is a lot more expansive, really, because you’re saying that I have no right to sign up for the service myself because you don’t like the business model. There are some things that are so harmful that that makes sense but I don’t agree that Gmail and Facebook being in that category.

> I don’t agree that Gmail and Facebook being in that category.

In my opinion, Facebook is unequivocally harmful to society at large.

I don't think GMail is unequivocally harmful, although the fact that people can use gmail addresses that don't look like gmail addresses is a problem for those of us who really try to never send email to gmail addresses in order to keep our data out of Google's realm.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#157

Post by only_as_i_fall »

pdpi wrote: post #139
nonameiguess wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem like a fair representation. The quote there isn't saying you should expect totally free services. It's saying you have the right to expect not to be tracked . Advertising up until 20 years ago relied entirely upon context and behavioral and engagement studies were conducted on an opt-in basis on Nielsen families and focus groups composed either of volunteers or people being compensated for participa…

> Tracking is becoming less effective, and the only recourse they have is stuffing even more ads everywhere to make up for the lost revenue from targeting. This is great, because you're not affected if you have uBlock Origin. If you don't, install it right now. That's part of the context, and pretty much goes in the direction of "I just don't want any advertising at all". I can sympathise, but we need to find a way t…

I'll write them a check then.

The real reason these service's need to extract data from their users isn't that they can't make money any other way, but that predatory pricing has been allowed to kill on the non free competition.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#158

Post by JohnFen »

astura wrote: post #134
paulryanrogers wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equifax is a great example of a service which you don't do business with and get opted into without consent.

>without consent That's like complaining that they are making you pay the balance when you didn't consent to paying off the charges you made. When you get a credit card you agree to the credit card agreement. I just picked a random credit card agreement I found online (Chase Amazon Visa) and it says: >We may obtain and review your credit history from credit reporting agencies and others. We may, from time to time, ob…

Equifax and the like collects massive amounts of data about people whether or not they have a credit card. There is no way to stop that without completely withdrawing from society.

That right there, in my opinion, is beyond wrong.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#159

Post by BizarroLand »

D13Fd wrote: post #145
pdpi wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tracking is becoming less effective, and the only recourse they have is stuffing even more ads everywhere to make up for the lost revenue from targeting. This is great, because you're not affected if you have uBlock Origin. If you don't, install it right now. That's part of the context, and pretty much goes in the direction of "I just don't want any advertising at all". I can sympathise, but we need to find a way t…

This is actually what bothered me the most about the article. If we all install add blockers, content producers can't make money.

I disagree. The shift would be towards content producers offering tiers of service and content, for instance a free tier to draw people in and a paid service with perks & more content.

A few companies do this already.

There could also be a change in the advertising model, for instance, online newspapers could sell and host ads on their own servers based on the news content of the article instead of by targeting users with tracking cookies. If you're reading an article about a chef you may be interested in cookware, after all.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#160

Post by JohnFen »

Tade0 wrote: post #71
jamiequint wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not, and should not, have a right not to be tracked. You should have a right to know if a given company wants to track you, and to decide if you want to still do business with them as a result. Similarly, they should have the right to know if you are going to block/evade tracking and be able to decide if they still want to do business with you as a result. This is how a free market works.

That's assuming a maximally unregulated market is an ideal we're striving for, which isn't the case - at least not in the EU, and that is a good thing.

An unregulated market cannot be a free market.
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