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Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

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Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#101

Post by tomrod »

pdpi wrote: post #9

The next to last paragraph bothers me: On Hackernews, they think it's "entitlement" to think that you can use free email and search engines and expect not to be tracked. The main problem with this line of thinking is that even if you had the option to pay for your email and for your search engine, some G**gle executive somewhere would mention during a meeting that they could add an extra $X million of revenue if they…

Entitlement, or reasonable payback for the employee economic surplus that has driven the technology boom for owners?

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#102

Post by eevilspock »

> There's an old adage that goes "if you're not paying for it, you are the product"

What does it say about our society that this is now an *old* adage?

Someone yesterday commented here that this is the most repeated quote on HN:

> "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it"

Everything we as a society today see as categorically wrong and repugnant was at one time in the not far past actively and passively accepted by the mainstream, with nearly everyone looking the other way and going with the flow. Yet even back then our societal conscience knew the very inconvenient truth. Those who repeatedly tried to wake society's conscience, to unbury the truth were invariably branded as radicals or crazies, doomed to be modern day Cassandras.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#104

Post by [deleted] »

emodendroket wrote: post #42
nonameiguess wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem like a fair representation. The quote there isn't saying you should expect totally free services. It's saying you have the right to expect not to be tracked . Advertising up until 20 years ago relied entirely upon context and behavioral and engagement studies were conducted on an opt-in basis on Nielsen families and focus groups composed either of volunteers or people being compensated for participa…

If you set up Gmail on your phone you’re not being advertised to at all when you check your mail. It seems hard to imagine any way providing that service for free would be worth their while if they couldn’t harvest the data.

[deleted]

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#105

Post by emodendroket »

Scarblac wrote: post #95
emodendroket wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you set up Gmail on your phone you’re not being advertised to at all when you check your mail. It seems hard to imagine any way providing that service for free would be worth their while if they couldn’t harvest the data.

If it's an Android phone, then Gmail came with the phone, that I paid for. I have no idea what the manufacturer paid Google, but I paid.

OK but it works on my iPad, my iPhone, Thunderbird or Outlook on a PC, etc., and what you’re saying does not apply to any of those.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#106

Post by emodendroket »

hobs wrote: post #97
emodendroket wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you set up Gmail on your phone you’re not being advertised to at all when you check your mail. It seems hard to imagine any way providing that service for free would be worth their while if they couldn’t harvest the data.

It's pretty simple - if its not profitable to run a service without spying on your users then it should simply not be run. That's it!

I disagree because I’d like to keep using the service.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#107

Post by emodendroket »

taeric wrote: post #70
emodendroket wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have always found it pretty helpful when Gmail would add reminders and calendar events by scanning emails so I can see it.

When it is locally done, I find it hard to see what isn't too like. That is, if I open an email and it asks if I want to make a reminder or add it to my calendar, that is cool. When I see that several emails I have not opened are already on my calendar, I am less happy about it.

I don’t really see what’s different, honestly. They’re moving it from one system they control to another, big deal. Plus who says I even saw the original e-mail?

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#108

Post by LatteLazy »

zahrc wrote: post #79

When using free products, I don’t mind ads, I do mind being tracked. The problem nowadays is that tracking and ads are pretty much a mutual thing today. And the worst about it is, to this day I still have to find an ad which seems relevant to me…

The issue is the ad is basically worthless without the tracking. No one wants to blindly advertise. They want to target, and then track the effectiveness.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#109

Post by emodendroket »

marcosdumay wrote: post #89
emodendroket wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you set up Gmail on your phone you’re not being advertised to at all when you check your mail. It seems hard to imagine any way providing that service for free would be worth their while if they couldn’t harvest the data.

> If you set up Gmail on your phone you’re not being advertised to at all when you check your mail. Well, that's Google's choice, and Google's problem. The fact that they made this choice does not negate my right not to be tracked. Anyway, if free email providers were impossible without universal tracking (they existed before the web got extensive tracking, so you are wrong), they shouldn't exist. If you want emails…

Well your claim is a lot more expansive, really, because you’re saying that I have no right to sign up for the service myself because you don’t like the business model. There are some things that are so harmful that that makes sense but I don’t agree that Gmail and Facebook being in that category.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#110

Post by Cederfjard »

hobs wrote: post #97
emodendroket wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you set up Gmail on your phone you’re not being advertised to at all when you check your mail. It seems hard to imagine any way providing that service for free would be worth their while if they couldn’t harvest the data.

It's pretty simple - if its not profitable to run a service without spying on your users then it should simply not be run. That's it!

OK, that’s how you feel, and your choice. What do you think about people who wouldn’t mind being spied on in exchange for free or cheaper services?

I’m personally with you, by the way, but I think it’s worth pointing out that it’s not the only valid position.

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