Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product • Hacker News Board

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#81

Post by SCNP » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:33 PM UTC

Spivak wrote: post #41

corpdrone2021 wrote: post #13

I realized this when Microsoft started reading the emails and attachments in my office 365 account, and having Cortana "helpfully" suggest various to-do items from them. The degree to which this seems to be the case has me convinced that the only way I will actually have any control of my data is if it's on a hard drive in my physical possession. And frankly I don't have time to maintain my own IT infrastructure.

I feel like the rule for these kinds of features goes like this: if it would be fine and useful for a self-hosted version of the app to do something then it's fine if a cloud-hosted version to do it as well. If you don't like that o365 is scanning your emails for todos and potential calendar events but it would be a non-issue on your Mail-in-a-Box then you have a problem with MS not the scanning.

Precisely this. I think this is why these discussions always blow up. A lot of commenters talking past each other about the tech that is pretty awesome. I've loved the idea of a personal assistant since I saw the movie Cherry 2000. However, I don't want MS or Google in charge of it. I'm in the process of setting up home automation and I'd like to eventually get to some AI driven processes but it needs to stay in my house. It makes me sad that the tech exists but I can't trust it's purveyors. I'm gonna have to figure it out myself.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#82

Post by _jal » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

jamiequint wrote: post #65

_jal wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a right to know if a given company wants > right to know if you are going to block/evade tracking I don't get how looking at this as rights and intent does any good. - Getting legalistic about intent immediately makes for more arguing. - Asking for a right to know about someone's "intent to block" is... odd, and seems to set the stage for all sorts of messy shenanigans. How is that supposed to work, exactly? If you…

You’re making this unnecessarily complicated and I can’t tell if it is in bad faith or not. - users should know of they are going to be tracked (part of the value exchange) - companies should know if ads/tracking are going to be blocked (part of the value exchange) Both parties should then be able to decide how to proceed accordingly.

I'm trying to take what you're saying seriously, and think through how it would work in the real world.

You're just repeating that you think some things "should" be the case. If they were, how would that work, how could it go wrong, what are the costs and benefits relative to other ways of achieving the same goals?

Policy is more than random assertions that feel right.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#83

Post by Intermernet » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

jamiequint wrote: post #25

nonameiguess wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem like a fair representation. The quote there isn't saying you should expect totally free services. It's saying you have the right to expect not to be tracked . Advertising up until 20 years ago relied entirely upon context and behavioral and engagement studies were conducted on an opt-in basis on Nielsen families and focus groups composed either of volunteers or people being compensated for participa…

You do not, and should not, have a right not to be tracked. You should have a right to know if a given company wants to track you, and to decide if you want to still do business with them as a result. Similarly, they should have the right to know if you are going to block/evade tracking and be able to decide if they still want to do business with you as a result. This is how a free market works.

"The free market" is demonstrably a sham. It, like communism, is good in theory, but broken by human behaviour.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#84

Post by diminish » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

zahrc wrote: post #79

When using free products, I don’t mind ads, I do mind being tracked. The problem nowadays is that tracking and ads are pretty much a mutual thing today. And the worst about it is, to this day I still have to find an ad which seems relevant to me…

most paid products actually add tracking as a condition to their terms of use.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#85

Post by SCNP » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:37 PM UTC

poidos wrote: post #34

It gets grosser by the day. This is something that is endemic not just to ad-tech companies, but regular brick and mortar stores as well: it isn't enough to just be consuming, to actually be producing value for the business: they must monetize as many seconds of our attention as possible! If I'm buying gas, I'm being served ads via the little screen. If I'm at the grocery store, there's ads plastered onto my cart. Bu…

Small band-aid on the repressive overall issue. You can usually push the second button down on the right-hand side to mute the mini-TV once the ads start playing. Not sure if you knew this already but I like to get the word out. And, maybe if they track how many times that button gets pressed they'll take a hint but I doubt it.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#86

Post by diminish » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:37 PM UTC

vegetablepotpie wrote: post #7

In theory, if you’re paying, it means that you’re a stakeholder, and can have some influence over the companies revenue, and therefore have some leverage. In practice, the fact that you are paying for a service makes you much more attractive to advertisers because it says you’re willing to spend money online.

nope, if u r paying u have to agree to the terms of use which usually includes tracking and other things which sell your data.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#87

Post by trollski » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:37 PM UTC

jamiequint wrote: post #25

nonameiguess wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem like a fair representation. The quote there isn't saying you should expect totally free services. It's saying you have the right to expect not to be tracked . Advertising up until 20 years ago relied entirely upon context and behavioral and engagement studies were conducted on an opt-in basis on Nielsen families and focus groups composed either of volunteers or people being compensated for participa…

You do not, and should not, have a right not to be tracked. You should have a right to know if a given company wants to track you, and to decide if you want to still do business with them as a result. Similarly, they should have the right to know if you are going to block/evade tracking and be able to decide if they still want to do business with you as a result. This is how a free market works.

great. i am letting you know i, just for shits and giggles will hire someone to follow you 24/7 and report your daily routine to me. i am assuming you will try to evade/block this and that is fine. have a nice life.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#88

Post by disease » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

nottorp wrote: post #53

Why do I have the feeling that a static site wouldn't have been slashdotted? I can't comment on their opinions because all i get is a pretty loading animation...

I can't even read the article - it just shows some pulsating bars where the content would be. Eventually you see an error pop-up regarding 'libry'

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#89

Post by marcosdumay » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #42

nonameiguess wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem like a fair representation. The quote there isn't saying you should expect totally free services. It's saying you have the right to expect not to be tracked . Advertising up until 20 years ago relied entirely upon context and behavioral and engagement studies were conducted on an opt-in basis on Nielsen families and focus groups composed either of volunteers or people being compensated for participa…

If you set up Gmail on your phone you’re not being advertised to at all when you check your mail. It seems hard to imagine any way providing that service for free would be worth their while if they couldn’t harvest the data.

> If you set up Gmail on your phone you’re not being advertised to at all when you check your mail.

Well, that's Google's choice, and Google's problem. The fact that they made this choice does not negate my right not to be tracked.

Anyway, if free email providers were impossible without universal tracking (they existed before the web got extensive tracking, so you are wrong), they shouldn't exist. If you want emails for all, and it's not economical, you can always have your government to intervene.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#90

Post by websites2023 » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

jamiequint wrote: post #65

_jal wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a right to know if a given company wants > right to know if you are going to block/evade tracking I don't get how looking at this as rights and intent does any good. - Getting legalistic about intent immediately makes for more arguing. - Asking for a right to know about someone's "intent to block" is... odd, and seems to set the stage for all sorts of messy shenanigans. How is that supposed to work, exactly? If you…

You’re making this unnecessarily complicated and I can’t tell if it is in bad faith or not. - users should know of they are going to be tracked (part of the value exchange) - companies should know if ads/tracking are going to be blocked (part of the value exchange) Both parties should then be able to decide how to proceed accordingly.

Your statements lack agents, which contributes to the feeling that they are intentionally slippery.

Who is responsible for telling users they are going to be tracked? Further more, whose responsibility is it to ensure the user understands the implications of that tracking? Whose responsibility is it to ensure that tracking is not abused?

Secondly, who is responsible for telling companies that their ads/tracking are going to be blocked? The user? If so, why? I don’t care one bit about the business model of the websites I visit. As a user, my attention has been manipulated for years, my behavioral data has been harvested, resold, abused… to be totally blunt, I don’t trust a single one of you any further than I can throw you. If you go under, I’ll find something else that meets my needs. I’ve already had to do that dozens of times in my life because it’s not like companies have any commitment to me as a customer in the first place. I’m just a big ol’ bag of potential sales determined through my data.

You’ll excuse me if I’m skeptical of these simplified terms, wherein you appear to propose me and giant mega corporations, who I can’t see, can’t sue, and don’t even know I’m doing business with, are on a level playing field. The information asymmetry is and lack of equal recourse are a bit hard to overcome in your simplified world.

As a notion user I’m now concerned with the data that application is harvesting from me, given the stance on privacy you gave here.