Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product • Hacker News Board

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#161

Post by p_j_w » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:54 PM UTC

badloginnew wrote: post #146

Cederfjard wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, that’s how you feel, and your choice. What do you think about people who wouldn’t mind being spied on in exchange for free or cheaper services? I’m personally with you, by the way, but I think it’s worth pointing out that it’s not the only valid position.

People who want to be spied on have the freedom to move to North Korea. I’d be ok with using tax dollars to help them. They’d still complain that people here have entitled attitudes about freedom, but they are free to choose a different way.

>People who want to be spied on have the freedom to move to North Korea.

Surely there's some middle ground between no digital tracking of users and North Korea?

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#162

Post by forgotmypw17 » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

pdpi wrote: post #9

The next to last paragraph bothers me: On Hackernews, they think it's "entitlement" to think that you can use free email and search engines and expect not to be tracked. The main problem with this line of thinking is that even if you had the option to pay for your email and for your search engine, some G**gle executive somewhere would mention during a meeting that they could add an extra $X million of revenue if they…

I don't think it's entitled at all.

Giving and receiving freely, without expecting anything in return, is built into human nature from before we were even human, and is still practiced everyday by many.

To give something away with strings attached, and then act entitled to those strings, THAT is entitlement.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#163

Post by LatteLazy » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #133

LatteLazy wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is the ad is basically worthless without the tracking. No one wants to blindly advertise. They want to target, and then track the effectiveness.

I will never understand why I can't just select things I am interested in on Facebook and then have it advertise based on that. I have problems in my life and money to solve them. I know what my problems are, but Facebook is so obsessed about tracking that they won't advertise to the things I am interested in.

Agreed. I find it reassuring in a weird way. I bought a toilet seat last year and got nothing but toilet seat ads for months. Because if you just bought a toilet seat you must need 10 more!? It surprises me they don't have a list you can at least cross things off...

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#164

Post by JohnFen » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:56 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #16

pdpi wrote: post #9

The next to last paragraph bothers me: On Hackernews, they think it's "entitlement" to think that you can use free email and search engines and expect not to be tracked. The main problem with this line of thinking is that even if you had the option to pay for your email and for your search engine, some G**gle executive somewhere would mention during a meeting that they could add an extra $X million of revenue if they…

I think the author's point is that you will be tracked even if you do pay. And indeed, I pay Google for gmail because some years I somehow slipped out of the free tier and had to start paying. At the same time, my email is unequivocally used by Google for tracking. I'm paying, and I'm still the product.

> I'm paying, and I'm still the product.

Yes, but you're not the only one who is the product. Everyone who sends email to you is as well.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#165

Post by basscomm » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:57 PM UTC

D13Fd wrote: post #145

pdpi wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tracking is becoming less effective, and the only recourse they have is stuffing even more ads everywhere to make up for the lost revenue from targeting. This is great, because you're not affected if you have uBlock Origin. If you don't, install it right now. That's part of the context, and pretty much goes in the direction of "I just don't want any advertising at all". I can sympathise, but we need to find a way t…

This is actually what bothered me the most about the article. If we all install add blockers, content producers can't make money.

There are other ways to make money producing content besides advertisements

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#166

Post by Kalium » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:57 PM UTC

acituan wrote: post #143

pdpi wrote: post #9

The next to last paragraph bothers me: On Hackernews, they think it's "entitlement" to think that you can use free email and search engines and expect not to be tracked. The main problem with this line of thinking is that even if you had the option to pay for your email and for your search engine, some G**gle executive somewhere would mention during a meeting that they could add an extra $X million of revenue if they…

> Expecting a valuable service with absolutely no consideration in return absolutely is a case of entitlement Like open source software? What you’re talking about is not entitlement, it is directed transactionality; “if I am using a service by x, I need to be the one personally compensating x”. X could as well receive some form of compensation from elsewhere. Open source developers can be receiving satisfaction, reco…

> Like open source software?

Given how poorly people often treat maintainers, I think "entitlement" is precisely the correct word.

Your point about charity is well-made. Though it may perhaps strain credulity to expect email services on a truly massive scale to be offered as non-reciprocal charity.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#167

Post by 8note » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:58 PM UTC

pdpi wrote: post #139

nonameiguess wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem like a fair representation. The quote there isn't saying you should expect totally free services. It's saying you have the right to expect not to be tracked . Advertising up until 20 years ago relied entirely upon context and behavioral and engagement studies were conducted on an opt-in basis on Nielsen families and focus groups composed either of volunteers or people being compensated for participa…

> Tracking is becoming less effective, and the only recourse they have is stuffing even more ads everywhere to make up for the lost revenue from targeting. This is great, because you're not affected if you have uBlock Origin. If you don't, install it right now. That's part of the context, and pretty much goes in the direction of "I just don't want any advertising at all". I can sympathise, but we need to find a way t…

Easy. VC money pays for it.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#168

Post by npteljes » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

Since ads with tracking sell better than ads without - never minding whether it's worth it or not - businesses who do more tracking will fare better. Since the market won't, regulation could help at this point, but I don't think that will happen, because businesses and goverments have similar interests here. From a government standpoint, let the businesses track the users, and when the time comes, they'll just get the results with a subpoena.

In conclusion, the general public's privacy is only important to the general public. The other entities are struggling for the opposite of privacy, and this is why I think we're seeing such an invasion on privacy.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#169

Post by JohnFen » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:00 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #44

benjaminjosephw wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I thought you were about to object to the generalization of an end-usr denigrating HN perspective! Okay, even if it is "entitled" to expect something for nothing, it's dishonest not to be clear and upfront about the costs. In fact, if you think the entitlement is misplaced then it's really a failure of the service providers in educating the users rather than a failure of the users themselves. If you don't agree,…

I find it hard to believe in this day and age that people don’t understand the basic business model of these services.

Have a chat with people who aren't into computers and the internet. A huge percentage of them don't understand any of this (and don't even understand why they should understand).

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#170

Post by BizarroLand » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

only_as_i_fall wrote: post #141

pdpi wrote: post #9

The next to last paragraph bothers me: On Hackernews, they think it's "entitlement" to think that you can use free email and search engines and expect not to be tracked. The main problem with this line of thinking is that even if you had the option to pay for your email and for your search engine, some G**gle executive somewhere would mention during a meeting that they could add an extra $X million of revenue if they…

The entitlement argument has always been a strawman. If I could pay Google $30 a month to use Google services without having to send any unescessary tracking info back to their servers AND I was still complaining you might have a point.

Think of how much money google & fb is leaving on the table by not selling google ad exemptions.

"Pay $5/month to google or $10/month for google & fb and they will not track you on signed in browsers & devices" would be a hell of a temptation to buy.