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EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

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Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#191

Post by nicoburns »

reedjosh wrote: post #189
nicoburns wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that rich and powerful private enterprises don't cause exactly the same kind of problems as state governments? They have the same coercive power, albeit through different means.

Choice. I'm not forced into a service provided by anyone. Government is monopoly of violence. For example, mono crop wheat is terrible, but the government uses its monopoly of force to coerce me into subsidies for foods I refuse to eat. These subsidies are the reason it's healthiest to stick to the perimeter of the store. Without them, cheap cereal junk foods would at least not be so cheap. This encouragement of low…

The government is not a monopoly of violence. Plenty of non-governmental organisations are violent. The existence of private security firms is an obvious example of this. In addition to this, if you support a minimal government that enforces private property rights, then this doesn't eliminate government violence: it allows the wealthy to access it by proxy.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#192

Post by systemvoltage »

peytn wrote: post #146
systemvoltage wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of your points are valid. I guess I struggle with the hypocrisy around that fact that if we really want to curb CO2, there is a bigger fish to fry. For example, millions of people travel for pleasure on airplanes. From one point to the otherside of the globe. No one gives a damn about that, but hey! Look, rich people on fancy airplanes. Even just today, GitHub copilot Twitter thread was full of “Rich people (Micr…

People like when things are fair. To get those big wins you’re gonna have to either make things look fair or use force (i.e. guns). You won’t be able to change human society into a kind of minmaxing superintelligence.

Agreed, I want fairness as well. I’m not opposed to the taxes on private jets. I’m just opposed to the overwhelming “fuck the rich” mob tone.

Maybe I’m looking into this too much, but to me it’s unavoidable observation.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#193

Post by philipkglass »

nicoburns wrote: post #181
Sharlin wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, but they do. New Shepard uses liquid hydrogen, which is not a fossil fuel per se , but in practice hydrogen is currently made from fossil fuels. SpaceShipTwo uses HTPB which is a hydrocarbon oligomer, basically synthetic rubber, definitely a fossil fuel. Falcon 9 first stage engines use RP-1, a fancy type of jet fuel. The Starship first stage uses methane, a fossil fuel (although it could be made renewably as wel…

A quick google says it took 2.90652E11 joules ~= 80MWh to get Saturn V to the moon. That seems like it'd actually be quite doable to do with renewables if you didn't need to fly too often.

I think that must be something like imparted kinetic energy rather than chemical energy of the fuel it burned. This puts Apollo 16 fuel at 4.19E13 joules:

https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/35155/what-rocket-...

Still doable with renewables though. Assume 11639 MWh of fuel energy and 60% efficiency converting electricity to fuel. About 19,400 MWh total. That's 8 days of output from a 300 MW wind farm operating at 1/3 capacity factor.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#194

Post by frenchy »

reedjosh wrote: post #187
js8 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question from definitely-not-libertarian democratic-socialist. Isn't the main point of libertarianism a defense of private property, concentration of which is eventually exactly the vehicle of oppression? I think libertarianism is quite self-contradictory, because if we assume completely fair starting conditions (they historically never were) and assume that people are renumerated fairly (which is subjective a…

> concentration of which is eventually exactly the vehicle of oppression? But concentration to this degree practically requires government force to survive. I believe even those on your side of the political spectrum believe that corruption is what prevents the people from properly benefiting from government intervention. I believe both you and I want us to stop (or never have started) all the wars of the past 20 yea…

> I believe both you and I want us to stop (or never have started) all the wars of the past 20 years. This is a very popular viewpoint, yet moneyed interests prevent this.

Let's not rewrite history here. All of the American wars of the last few decades where very popular with (most) American voters when then they started.

There's no doubt the American military-industrial complex had some role in manufacturing consent, but don't kid yourself into thinking that the will of the American voters wasn't critical to the political strategy of the government.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#195

Post by bluGill »

emteycz wrote: post #150
ithkuil wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's not even about forbidding them to so it. It's just about paying a little bit of taxes. Is the fuel taxes such a big part of the cost of flying a private jet? Is it just that those people hate paying taxes on principle (and manage to lobby for it)?

In Europe, people flying private are overlapping with those sitting in the parliaments.

It is either government, or C level executives in large companies. Nobody else can afford to fly private jets. Even if you fill your private jet with others it is still cheaper to fly first class commercial. I've looked into it, engineers can't afford it unless their company is paying for it.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#196

Post by js8 »

reedjosh wrote: post #187
js8 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question from definitely-not-libertarian democratic-socialist. Isn't the main point of libertarianism a defense of private property, concentration of which is eventually exactly the vehicle of oppression? I think libertarianism is quite self-contradictory, because if we assume completely fair starting conditions (they historically never were) and assume that people are renumerated fairly (which is subjective a…

> concentration of which is eventually exactly the vehicle of oppression? But concentration to this degree practically requires government force to survive. I believe even those on your side of the political spectrum believe that corruption is what prevents the people from properly benefiting from government intervention. I believe both you and I want us to stop (or never have started) all the wars of the past 20 yea…

> But concentration to this degree practically requires government force to survive.

Presumably, there would be government (or equivalent force) to enforce the private property rights? So I am not sure how that addresses the problem I outlined. And how do you make sure this force doesn't become corrupt?

> I don't believe deference to authority can ever bring them about. Authority always ends up corrupt.

Here's the thing. I believe there is a third option that is outside the "capitalist" spectrum which I am talking about (the liberal society of freely trading men who each have plot of land vs authoritarian society of landed gentry as a result of capital accumulation).

And that 3rd option is keeping wealth within certain limits by democratic control, through for example progressive taxes on either income or wealth, and redistribution of this to people who lost all (or most of) property, or just everybody in equal manner. Like a basic income that would be financed by the richest. See, this solution is different from both ends of the spectrum, and sidesteps the authoritarian problem (there is no decision to be made about where the money are going, there is a simple rule how they are redistributed, and this rule is agreed by consensus). The government that in libertarianism has to exist to enforce property rights could as well enforce this redistribution.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#197

Post by InitialLastName »

goodpoint wrote: post #122
avalys wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private jets are completely irrelevant to global warming because there are not enough of them. They’re a convenient distraction from the problem that actually curbing global warming will require huge changes in the lifestyle of the global middle class. Not just the super-rich.

> Private jets are completely irrelevant Every amount of pollution counts, otherwise we could also claim that a single individual makes 0 difference.

With 8 billion people, it's difficult to allocate responsibility in a way that doesn't round to zero. Worst kind of tragedy of the commons.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#198

Post by shock »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #14
BelenusMordred wrote: post #5

> Private jets will enjoy an exemption through classification of "business aviation" as the use of aircraft by firms for carriage of passengers or goods as an "aid to the conduct of their business", if generally considered not for public hire. > A further exemption is given for "pleasure" flights whereby an aircraft is used for "personal or recreational" purposes not associated with a business or professional use. Su…

That and it's also the most wasteful use of fuel, because you're lifting an entire jet and crew for more than likely a single rich jerk who feels too special to fly passenger jets like everyone else. On a carbon-per-person metric, private jets are literally the worst .

> On a carbon-per-person metric, private jets are literally the worst.

Depends what you consider a "jet". There are a lot of aicraft in GA aviation that consume fuel at the same amount/km as a car, while not contributing to carbon emissions by sitting in traffic. Many of them also burn regular gasoline as fuel.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#199

Post by makomk »

dang wrote: post #175

The key word here is probably "draft". Bill proposals usually don't amount to much, and for that reason it's generally good practice to wait for a state change (no pun intended). Proposed bills usually go nowhere - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... On HN, there's no harm in waiting - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

I'm pretty sure the significance of a proposed bill is rather different from the EU than in typical democratic countries like say the UK, US or Canada. In most democracies any elected politician can propose a bill, and so they often do purely as a form of showboating to the electorate even if there's no chance it'll get passed. Within the EU, only the small, powerful and very much non-elected European Commission can propose new laws, and they don't generally have anyone to showboat to - as a general rule, I think if they propose something it's done with the intention of it becoming law and it usually does unless there's some actual, strong, substantial objection to it from some other group with the power to stop it.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#200

Post by 7952 »

avalys wrote: post #82
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That and it's also the most wasteful use of fuel, because you're lifting an entire jet and crew for more than likely a single rich jerk who feels too special to fly passenger jets like everyone else. On a carbon-per-person metric, private jets are literally the worst .

Private jets are completely irrelevant to global warming because there are not enough of them. They’re a convenient distraction from the problem that actually curbing global warming will require huge changes in the lifestyle of the global middle class. Not just the super-rich.

Its all the same CO2. Everyone has to do their bit.
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