EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax • Hacker News Board

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#121

Post by tasogare » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 7:11 PM UTC

unethical_ban wrote: post #89

ArkanExplorer wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its been the same with lockdown. Enforce totalitarian restrictions and tracking on the plebes, whilst the rich and connected routinely ignore or are excluded from the rules. Its possible that Lockdown is a ploy to distract from the trillions of dollars of money printing that has gone on during the pandemic, to suppress the inflation generated, as well as to normalise location and biological data collection and arbitr…

I don't understand people who think that, at hundreds or thousands of municipal and state levels, political leaders were secretly in meetings with robes nodding excitedly over the opportunity to oppress the masses. Or that an unknown, highly contagious respiratory disease causing hospitals to overflow with no vaccine available didn't warrant some kind of mandates against public interactions. It boggles my mind what k…

Believe it or not, this is exactly what happened. I'm lucky enough to live in a country that didn't went with the lockdown madness (Japan), so I know for a fact an alternative way was possibly. It's sad to read people so brainwashed they defend the ruling class who robbed their liberties (and which didn't followed the rules themselves, as shown in France with ministers going to secret restaurants in Paris[1]).

[1] https://apnews.com/article/paris-europe-coronavirus-pandemic...

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#122

Post by goodpoint » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 7:11 PM UTC

avalys wrote: post #82

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That and it's also the most wasteful use of fuel, because you're lifting an entire jet and crew for more than likely a single rich jerk who feels too special to fly passenger jets like everyone else. On a carbon-per-person metric, private jets are literally the worst .

Private jets are completely irrelevant to global warming because there are not enough of them. They’re a convenient distraction from the problem that actually curbing global warming will require huge changes in the lifestyle of the global middle class. Not just the super-rich.

> Private jets are completely irrelevant

Every amount of pollution counts, otherwise we could also claim that a single individual makes 0 difference.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#123

Post by jbay808 » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 7:11 PM UTC

tasogare wrote: post #106

jbay808 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wealthy class are, presumably, wealthy enough to pay the carbon tax and still enjoy the perks and privileges of private jets though? It's not like they're being exempted from a ban on flying private jets, but rather a tax on them. Their wealth itself was already their ticket to perks and privilege, because it lets them pay the tax.

GP is right. The real point of carbon-tax (and the heavy promotion of global warming) is not to address the underlying issue but to extract wealth from the 99.9% and redirect it to the riches. Any other occasions will be used as such: for example recently the covid was used to kill small businesses and fed the big corporations, which stock rised hugely.

How do you know this?

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#124

Post by AnssiH » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

shreyshnaccount wrote: post #32

The EU has been completely bonkers for the last few years. Just staggeringly stupid policy I mean look at them literally banning encryption and then this I'm confused but the ppl running the eu are more confused

They didn't ban or plan to ban encryption, that was just a super misleading headline / article. It wasn't even a proposal or a draft, just research into what are possible options to fight child pornography online. And I'd rather they do their research than implement random stuff.

I've noticed there's a recent trend of grossly mispresenting this stuff in the worst possible light. It seems if any EU whitepaper even just mentions encryption it somehow gets twisted into EU encryption ban being imminent.

I urge people to always read or at least glance at the actual documents when claims about new laws/proposals/etc. seem outrageous.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#125

Post by systemvoltage » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #83

systemvoltage wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it is cool to hate on rich people these days but the amount of CO2 pollution created by handful of private jets is miniscule compared to the rest of the aviation industry which is still miniscule compared to general transportion, agriculture and meat industry. Just keep the magnitude in context, I think it is still an issue but our focus needs to be appropriately allocated. Should we also care that rich people…

Me dumping a bunch of tyres into a nearby river would be absolutely negligible compared to global pollution, yes it's still not allowed. A single private jet flight is incredibly polluting yet we allow it to be exempt from pollution tax because......on a grand scale it's nothing? Hmmmmmmm.

All of your points are valid.

I guess I struggle with the hypocrisy around that fact that if we really want to curb CO2, there is a bigger fish to fry. For example, millions of people travel for pleasure on airplanes. From one point to the otherside of the globe. No one gives a damn about that, but hey! Look, rich people on fancy airplanes.

Even just today, GitHub copilot Twitter thread was full of “Rich people (Microsoft apparently) get to ignore licenses but us poor plebs have to abide by them”

Christ. I feel like I’m witnessing a mob without reason, logic and rational.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#126

Post by Qwertious » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

whiddershins wrote: post #108

rektide wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On a carbon-per-person metric, private jets are literally the worst. Were the worst. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tourism

Wait but rockets don’t use fossil fuels, do they?

The energy in rocket fuel has to come from somewhere. If it doesn't come from renewables, it's probably from fossil.

For instance, most hydrogen production currently comes from heating up methane and steam for a CH4 + 2x H20 -> 4x H2 + CO2 reaction. So current hydrogen is just gas with extra steps.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#127

Post by LudwigNagasena » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 7:16 PM UTC

_rpd wrote: post #115

BelenusMordred wrote: post #5

> Private jets will enjoy an exemption through classification of "business aviation" as the use of aircraft by firms for carriage of passengers or goods as an "aid to the conduct of their business", if generally considered not for public hire. > A further exemption is given for "pleasure" flights whereby an aircraft is used for "personal or recreational" purposes not associated with a business or professional use. Su…

The actual reason for the exemption is that they cannot impose the tax on non-EU operators, giving the non-EU operators a competitive advantage.

They can’t impose a tax on jets that use their airspace?

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#128

Post by duxup » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 7:16 PM UTC

whatever1 wrote: post #37

duxup wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"more about control" Control what though? It's a carbon tax on jet fuel. Makes sense to me that some folks with some connections could get themself exempt (even if unfair). But I don't see anyone else paying any more or less under "control"... those folks are still going to travel.

The West has been consuming fossils to fuel their industrial revolution for centuries, but now that is time of the East to use energy and grow, we tell them that energy is bad for the environment and that they have to pay tax or buy expensive energy (renewables)

The consequences don't really change regardless of how you read history.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#129

Post by LudwigNagasena » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

avalys wrote: post #82

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That and it's also the most wasteful use of fuel, because you're lifting an entire jet and crew for more than likely a single rich jerk who feels too special to fly passenger jets like everyone else. On a carbon-per-person metric, private jets are literally the worst .

Private jets are completely irrelevant to global warming because there are not enough of them. They’re a convenient distraction from the problem that actually curbing global warming will require huge changes in the lifestyle of the global middle class. Not just the super-rich.

Every single flight in isolation is completely irrelevant. So what?

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#130

Post by js8 » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 7:18 PM UTC

reedjosh wrote: post #81

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #56

Every time shit like this happens, it destroys faith of ordinary citizens in the system. The more likely they are to conclide that this is a mugs game and less likely to follow the law when noone is watching

> The more likely they are to conclide that this is a mugs game This is one of the primary reasons I'm a pure libertarian. The more in depth research I did, the more I found it's nothing but a rigged game. It truly is like the joke that's along the lines of: "What's the difference between the government and the mob?" "The mob didn't get 12,000 hours of schooling to convince you it's necessary."

Honest question from definitely-not-libertarian democratic-socialist. Isn't the main point of libertarianism a defense of private property, concentration of which is eventually exactly the vehicle of oppression?

I think libertarianism is quite self-contradictory, because if we assume completely fair starting conditions (they historically never were) and assume that people are renumerated fairly (which is subjective and disputable), the system as a whole tends to accumulate wealth in hands of smaller and smaller number of citizens, if nothing else then by just random chance, and since the property ownership is sacrosanct, there is no mechanism which could counteract the accumulation. Then these people might use the accumulated wealth to oppress others, as a kind of oligopoly. This contradiction was actually pointed out by Marx, who predicted that end of capitalism (a revolution) will come out as a result of this process.