Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#131

Post by rendall » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 8:15 PM UTC

Xc43 wrote: post #126

rendall wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid I cannot frame this question in a way that does not sound judgmental, and for that I am sincerely sorry. I'm genuinely curious why you would pick an arbitrary story out of the infinite multitudes and "choose to believe it" as a way to combat existential despair. It would be as if I, gaining some comfort hearing about Ragnarok, "chose to believe" that Odin literally exists and somewhere there is a bifrost b…

Choosing to believe is mainly suspending disbelief. Or patience with mystery. Forever. The more patience, the greater faith. Liking a story is not sufficient to benefit significantly from it. In other words, to have skin in the game makes you gain more. The story you contribute to does not matter until you have faith. When you have faith, in any thing, you enjoy conviction, certainty. Conviction is intrinsically valu…

> There is only one piece of advice I dare give atheists: intentionally have faith in something.

I mean that makes sense that you would do that. If you can get an atheist to accept the premise that faith is somehow necessary, then you have validated your own worldview.

To me, faith is not some noble stance in the face of uncertainty. It is a metaphorical shrug in the face of cognitive dissonance. The correct spiritual answer to cognitive dissonance is to bravely resolve it, not prop it up with the crutch that is faith. Of course philosophies that require its adherents to accept manifest absurdity are going to have a safety valve like faith or enlightenment. That's the only way people could ask a question like "How could God, who is Perfect and Good, allow such Evil to exist?" and go on and on and on without coming to the obvious conclusion embedded in the question itself.

Or Why the hell are we taking seriously the fevered imaginings of desert goat herders dead these 2000 years? well, because faith

So, yes, I get why you're asking atheists to have faith. Ask yourself why you need that validation.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#132

Post by rendall » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 8:30 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #130

all2 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People can find meanings in all sorts of things and in all sorts of ways. I've been grappling with this recently. Specifically the question of "What amounts to fantasy and superstition and what reflects reality?" Pyschedelics is a rabbit-trail followed from here, as well as the idea that "nothing is actually real, this is just a simulation". And following those is the idea "reality is what you make it" and "you are…

"What amounts to fantasy and superstition and what reflects reality?" I don't see how we can ever really know. We only ever have access to our own experience. How could we ever find out what the world is really like beyond our own "subjective" experience? "Pyschedelics is a rabbit-trail followed from here, as well as the idea that "nothing is actually real, this is just a simulation". And following those is the idea…

Descartes' I think therefore I am has become a cliche, but it is profound. I can chuck any questioning about whether I actually exist or not. How do I know that I exist? Well, because I am thinking.

It's at this point all I (we?) can know with probability 1, metaphysically speaking. We could just be a brain in a box, stimulated to believe we are alive in this world. But at core, we (or at least I) do exist, brain-in-a-box status notwithstanding

As for the rest, well, act as if it's all real and things will go better for you.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#133

Post by naasking » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

all2 wrote: post #94

naasking wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This illustrates the scope of experience we apply to the world. I have never seen a color of running, but somoeone has. Synesthesia is very real and to those who possess it, there is a color of running. Subjective properties are not objective properties. Synesthetes perceive subjective interpretations of objective properties. The perceptual distortions enabled by psychedelics are also not reflecting objective prope…

You're sidestepping the metaphor. The point is that you and I may not be mentally equipped to observe reality in a way that shows underlying purpose. There's the assumption that the thing yields its purpose when inspected. Consider a screw driver. If you and I see it but lack the knowledge of context into which it was created (driving screws) we would say it is obviouslymechanical, obviously designed and manufactured…

If you only intended to metaphorically claim that running may have a colour as some kind of thought experiment, then that wasn't apparent from your description. You literally said that synesthetes experience "worlds of understanding" to which we don't have access, thus implying that they are perceiving something real. That just isn't true.

As for the metaphor itself, "side-stepping" it simply shows that there is no known or valid analogue to what you're trying to describe, which should raise skepticism as to its validity. You're basically asserting Russell's teapot.

Either what you're describing can be materially observed, or it cannot. If it can be observed, then it will be discovered by empirical means. If it cannot, then there is no reason to posit its existence and it can be dispensed with.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#134

Post by acituan » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 8:46 PM UTC

GavinMcG wrote: post #123

acituan wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but if you're expecting a broad study correlating the Big 5, ACEs, existential depression, and giftedness, you should 1) look elsewhere, or 2) go get your PhD and do the work. My expectation is not that he had done a different study. My expectation was, personal essay or not, if they are throwing citations, academic credibility and 5000 words at the world about their central thesis, to eliminate the goddamn confoun…

When you say "central thesis" and "confounds" it sounds like you think this is a piece where the author is setting out to prove something. What, though? It seems to me this is an exploration that's meant to be helpful to people who relate to what the author describes. That description doesn't need to reflect a well-defined category in order to be useful. Useful things don't even need to be true much less well-proven.…

Thanks for the honest inquiry, I’ve been responding between sleep cycles and my responses has been more combative than necessary.

My main grief with his exploration (and the reason for trying to dig out his thesis) is that gifted folks, which I think are over represented in this forum, are going to ascribe all their malaise to their giftedness. Which is a very misleading and harmful but also attractive proposition to buy into.

I’ve suffered from this personally after more than a year and $40k wasted with a particular highly credentialed therapist that insisted on blowing sunshine up my hole by trying to explain away every single element of my suffering with giftedness. After switching to a no bs, equally credentialed therapist, and actually making progress, I was furious to realize how much of that was a collusion in lazy thinking and not doing the hard work of personal transformation.

Back to the author, this guy made a career out of the notion of gifted children, so I don’t think he is merely presenting a story. He is trying to persuade an audience on this thesis. But how can we discern if he got the credentials because he was right vs because there was a high demand from parents and people alike to hear that their problem was “just being gifted”?

Hence my digging up the trait theory and trying to poke holes otherwise. I would wager, admittedly with no authority, 90% of the gifted folks in “existential depression”, excluding immediate environmental factors, are simply suffering from being unequipped against the meaning crises of our times. They are under-educated, under-connected and under-spiritual, in general under-participating in life, just flowing with whatever movies, politics, articles come their way to make sense of things without exerting any will to get to the bottom of it and do their homework.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#135

Post by thrwwmbkpr » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 8:51 PM UTC

thrww20210608 wrote: post #44

rendall wrote: post #35

For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar. The…

The many Marian apparitions that have been documented, makes me certain that there is meaning to life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun Feel free to ask me more about Catholicism if this piques your interest!

I come from a Protestant background and have always been very interested in reports of possession as a "proof" of a spiritual realm. It can't prove everything (and even the fact of possession can't verifiably be established as far as I've read), but it can present a powerful argument for forces at work beyond our scientific knowledge. Your links got me very interested in Marian apparitions. Are there any other good sources you would recommend?

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#136

Post by physicles » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 8:56 PM UTC

brundolf wrote: post #56

rendall wrote: post #35

For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar. The…

To add to this: I grew up with religion and eventually broke away from it. I went on this hyper-realist streak, looking to break down life and reality into its most fundamental parts. I assumed this would include true meaning. It didn't. What I found is that meaning is like a delicate ecosystem, and I was strip-mining. I thought I was breaking reality down into its most fundamental pieces, harvesting them and learnin…

I had a very similar journey. Even after 10 years I sometimes still slip into existential despair, and the remedy is, as you said, a bit subtle: don’t outright ignore it, but also don’t attack it directly. No matter how hard you stare into the void, you will never see anything but darkness.

It’s a bit like happiness: if you pursue happiness directly, you will surely fail. Instead, pursue worthy goals and care for others, and happiness will take care of itself.

I also learned that, as you wrote, we can lean on human biology. If one asks, “Why should I wish to strive to make progress in life and keep living?” the a suitable answer is simply “Because I’m human and that’s how I’m wired.”

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#137

Post by smegcicle » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 8:58 PM UTC

For those curious about dabrowski's models, take a look at his 'levels of consciousness'†, where he divides personal driving forces into three categories, which develop in order, if at all: base instincts, societal expectations, and a "third factor" of moral self-direction.

This model describes the repeated breakdowns ("disintegrations" in the form of neuroses) that are required to progress upwards ("positive disintegration") toward incorporating this third factor, resulting in a 'true personality' somewhat reminiscent of Maslow's 'self actualization'.

† https://www.positivedisintegration.com/tb2.png

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#138

Post by rendall » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 9:03 PM UTC

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #53

motohagiography wrote: post #31

The exercises are important. I know what he's talking about. There is a mechanism he touches on a few different ways but doesn't mention as what I think is the source of this existential depression. The depression is often caused, as he says, by the loss of something that causes a collapse of an identity, and the solution involves those exercises of establishing yourself with multiple ideas of who you are so that the…

> establishing yourself with multiple ideas of who you are so that the loss of one thing does not bring the whole thing down. I wrote down the facets of this exact process here [1], which I call my Autological Manifesto. All the aspects of being that define a self-studying, constantly evolving algorithm. [1] https://hypertele.fi/a7084542272f4c89 > I am an evolving whole of components, each and all of them replaceable…

As a head's up: the convention is not to put Mensa membership in your CV, dude, unless you're somehow an officer or there is something more to it. Go ahead and ask: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/2584723/

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#139

Post by rendall » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

johnchristopher wrote: post #66

rendall wrote: post #35

For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar. The…

> Hwæt! The Universe might be meaningless, these nihilistic Viking ghosts whispered to me, across the centuries. Live bravely, do not allow yourself to wallow in despair while entropy gathers itself. Make meaning, fight, build, love, stay healthy right in the face of the Uncaring Void. It's the only thing you can do. Entropy will win. Until then, make it meaningful. Those vikings are more existentialist than nihilist…

Their answer to existential questions was to throw their lives away slaughtering each other and innocents in battle, so they could drink mead in Valhalla until the Final Battle. The question is Existential. Their answer was nihilist.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#140

Post by Xc43 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 9:35 PM UTC

rendall wrote: post #131

Xc43 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Choosing to believe is mainly suspending disbelief. Or patience with mystery. Forever. The more patience, the greater faith. Liking a story is not sufficient to benefit significantly from it. In other words, to have skin in the game makes you gain more. The story you contribute to does not matter until you have faith. When you have faith, in any thing, you enjoy conviction, certainty. Conviction is intrinsically valu…

> There is only one piece of advice I dare give atheists: intentionally have faith in something. I mean that makes sense that you would do that. If you can get an atheist to accept the premise that faith is somehow necessary, then you have validated your own worldview. To me, faith is not some noble stance in the face of uncertainty. It is a metaphorical shrug in the face of cognitive dissonance. The correct spiritua…

Don't get me wrong, I do not give advice unsolicited. Faithful or not it is just a bad idea. I dare give advice when asked. The end of my last comment could have been better built.

I never stated that faith was necessary, only useful and empowering. It is not a purely religious concept. It is one of those things that cannot be conveyed through words, the same way I cannot convey the color red or wetness without the receiver experiencing it. I imagine color blind people will never get red the way most do.

I would never expect a self-professed atheist to recognize the nobility of religious faith but to at least acknowledge its difficulty, yes. It is difficult. To act with conviction in the face of uncertainty, that is difficult and I claim noble. To start a startup requires faith in yourself, your product, team because no can one guarantee success yet you need certainty to act. Faith is not a purely religious concept.

Faith is recognized by its repercussions. An example of that is that we do take seriously desert shepherds dead 2000 years ago. But, it is not faith alone. It is also about the foundation for that faith. If all are able of faith, I guess the Norse had it. Why is that religion dead though, why did people stop believing?

It is because after 2000 years people worthy of my trust in their intellect think of Jesus that I considered this man named Jesus worthy at least to think about.