Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#51

Post by wpietri » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

rendall wrote: post #35

For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar. The…

Yeah, I think one of the issues people have with lack of intrinsic meaning is that they experience it as a loss.

My parents weren't religious, so I grew up an atheist. I never believed that there was intrinsic meaning, intrinsic purpose. That was intimidating in my youth, as I was learning about the vast scale of the universe. Now it seems great. The universe is a blank canvas: we can create meaning for ourselves.

One related thing I especially love is the art documentary "Rivers and Tides", about the work of Andy Goldsworthy. It does a great job of conveying beauty and meaning even when it is transitory. Especially when it is transitory. It's only when give up the belief in vast, universal meaning, that meanings we create for ourselves and one another can be seen in their proper scale.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#52

Post by NL807 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:39 PM UTC

rendall wrote: post #35

For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar. The…

I think I'm cool with that. There is no meaning to any of this chaos, but I make an effort to make my life feel meaningful, and that's all that matters. Like clay, on its own has no purpose, but you can fashion it into bricks and build something with it.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#53

Post by hypertele-Xii » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #31

The exercises are important. I know what he's talking about. There is a mechanism he touches on a few different ways but doesn't mention as what I think is the source of this existential depression. The depression is often caused, as he says, by the loss of something that causes a collapse of an identity, and the solution involves those exercises of establishing yourself with multiple ideas of who you are so that the…

> establishing yourself with multiple ideas of who you are so that the loss of one thing does not bring the whole thing down.

I wrote down the facets of this exact process here [1], which I call my Autological Manifesto. All the aspects of being that define a self-studying, constantly evolving algorithm.

[1] https://hypertele.fi/a7084542272f4c89

> I am an evolving whole of components, each and all of them replaceable with parts truer to myself. My growth is most important to me; As I accumulate consciousness, greater understanding provides clearer approaches to everything else.

> Replacing out parts of myself can be frightening, as if I forget my identity or become too brittle of a whole to sustain. In reality, a superorganism consisting of maximally diverse components flourishes exactly because of, not in spite of, its multidimensionality.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#54

Post by NL807 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

stared wrote: post #50

rendall wrote: post #35

For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar. The…

> Human-created meaning Could you give an example for "meaning" which is not "human-created"? A human (and possibly other animals') instinct to create meaning might be not different from a spider's instinct to make a web. "Meaning" looks like an evolution-selected motivation tool for long-term goals. If it is true, it is an ill-motivated question whether there is some universal meaning. The same as if there is an obj…

> Could you give an example for "meaning" which is not "human-created"?

There is none, and that is the point. "Human-created" is just an emphasis that meaning is a fabricated construct by the human mind.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#55

Post by costcopizza » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:54 PM UTC

thrww20210608 wrote: post #44

rendall wrote: post #35

For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar. The…

The many Marian apparitions that have been documented, makes me certain that there is meaning to life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun Feel free to ask me more about Catholicism if this piques your interest!

What book should I read?

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#56

Post by brundolf » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

rendall wrote: post #35

For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar. The…

To add to this: I grew up with religion and eventually broke away from it. I went on this hyper-realist streak, looking to break down life and reality into its most fundamental parts. I assumed this would include true meaning. It didn't.

What I found is that meaning is like a delicate ecosystem, and I was strip-mining. I thought I was breaking reality down into its most fundamental pieces, harvesting them and learning the truest truth, but it turned out there were important things that couldn't survive the process, and I was destroying them.

It was only by allowing myself suspension of disbelief and embracing the meaning I already knew inside of me that I was able to pull myself out of nihilism and find happiness again. Meaning was there; I simply had to stop getting in its way. It may not have any physical or metaphysical reality, but it has a reality in the human spirit, and that's really all it needs to be. The proper response to "But meaning is just a fragile idea that lives only in our minds!" is "Yes! And that's why it is so precious and so important to guard carefully!"

We must tend to our gardens, not grind them down for their components

Epilogue: I didn't return to religion, though I did come to appreciate how many things religion got right via millennia of accumulated human experience. And a nice thing about knowing that meaning doesn't come from metaphysics is you don't have to subscribe to any one doctrine; you can internalize the pieces that seem true and set aside the pieces that you believe are wrong, morally or logically.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#57

Post by omega3 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 3:06 PM UTC

As someone who is of below average intelligence I can confirm that I don't exhibit any of the symptoms described in the article.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#58

Post by GavinMcG » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

acituan wrote: post #4

So many words for mere conjecture that is ultimately going to be used as a pat on one's own back for feeling bummed. I especially love the author's self-designation as gifted and not once expanding on this very narrow dimensionality reduction. What happened to the personality traits? What happened to character, adverse childhood experiences, education etc independent of so-called giftedness? Anyone could have come up…

> So many words for mere conjecture

Yes, this is what's known as a "personal essay". There's some research citations, too, because the author is a researcher who has worked in this area, but if you're expecting a broad study correlating the Big 5, ACEs, existential depression, and giftedness, you should 1) look elsewhere, or 2) go get your PhD and do the work.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#59

Post by slothtrop » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

My new outlook on "meaning" is that it's felt, not rationalized. That is to say, we create our meaning but don't have much control over what feels meaningful to us. If someone told you that a given dull, repetitive task would be good for humanity in a utilitarian sense, it wouldn't necessarily feel any more meaningful. There's a reason the strongest predictor of men's happiness is their work. We like to work on whatever happens to interest us and so much the better if that helps us engage with others, and shows impactful results.

I think it's possible to find meaning in our work whether we pursue it relentlessly or leisurely, it comes down to preference. Some people are content to live each day like the last and lead low-stress lives.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#60

Post by zhdc1 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

acituan wrote: post #33

zhdc1 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I especially love the author's self-designation as gifted... Anyone could have come up with this The author was a chaired professor who wrote several dozen peer reviewed articles and five books on the subject. He was also the chair for his state's psychology association board for several years, an associate dean, and cofounded his university's school of psychology. I'm not going to comment on the quality of the art…

> I'm not going to comment on the quality of the article or whether 'giftedness' is a meaningful construct Just that it is made aware, instead of leveling a counter-argument, you are only appealing to authority. Everyone, all the way back to Freud or Jung, would be fair game to criticize for such a young field as psychology, because new paradigms and data do surface often. I don't care if they made this their life's…

> Just that it is made aware, instead of leveling a counter-argument, you are only appealing to authority.

The original poster attacked the author's credibility. I pointed out that, when you help establish a concept, you're qualified to write about it to non-experts in a public venue.