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Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

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Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#271

Post by WalterBright »

mcguire wrote: post #266
WalterBright wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It sounds like Amazon strong arms these companies into ONLY serving them. I don't really understand this. Amazon can't "strong arm" you unless you let them. If Amazon "requires" you to dump your other clients, you can also "require" that such a clause means they must offer compensating guarantees and more money. Sheesh. Don't start a business where the business plan is to have only one customer, or at least if you…

My impression is that these businesses are started specifically to work for Amazon.

I wouldn't start such a business without an ironclad contract with Amazon (or anyone else, for that matter). Not a chance.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#272

Post by cartoonworld »

kjs3 wrote: post #256
blck wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like Amazon strong arms these companies into ONLY serving them. FTA: "The incident is notable as it appears to be the first public example in the United States of Amazon delivery service partners, small businesses that deliver packages exclusively for Amazon" This is the program for Amazon Delivery Service Partners https://logistics.amazon.com/ Seems to me it's basically Amazon Flex but for people with capi…

That's exactly it. You get sold on "You get a slice of the amazing growth of Amazon", but are buying into the fact Amazon can cut you out at any time, for any reason, and you have no recourse.

It's even worse than that, Amazon will razzle-dazzle you with that "amazing growth" potential, but they likely don't highlight the fact that you are entering into a monopsony franchise. Except it isn't at all like FedEx, where the franchise is the route--for Amazon, they get to decide arbitrarily what, where, when, and how you deliver to whom, all while dictating your employee's pay and everything about your equipment.

How is anybody supposed to craft a business plan when Amazon can't guarantee what sort of business you're gonna do, and also change it for whatever reason they like?

I am altering the deal... pray I do not alter it further [MANIACAL LAUGHTER emanates from THE FLYING FOX]

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#273

Post by cartoonworld »

WalterBright wrote: post #258
blck wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like Amazon strong arms these companies into ONLY serving them. FTA: "The incident is notable as it appears to be the first public example in the United States of Amazon delivery service partners, small businesses that deliver packages exclusively for Amazon" This is the program for Amazon Delivery Service Partners https://logistics.amazon.com/ Seems to me it's basically Amazon Flex but for people with capi…

> It sounds like Amazon strong arms these companies into ONLY serving them. I don't really understand this. Amazon can't "strong arm" you unless you let them. If Amazon "requires" you to dump your other clients, you can also "require" that such a clause means they must offer compensating guarantees and more money. Sheesh. Don't start a business where the business plan is to have only one customer, or at least if you…

>Don't start a business where the business plan is to have only one customer, or at least if you do, don't complain when they realize they have you over a barrel.

This is great advice, such good advice that it should be given over and over.

Unfortunately, there is someone out there who hasn't heard it yet. Amazon will just shop and shop until they find that person.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#274

Post by specialp »

mattmcknight wrote: post #59
at-fates-hands wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I called Amazon and they of course speak of them like they are some completely separate affiliate that has nothing to do with them. This by design: Amazon has repeatedly said in court that it is not responsible for the actions of its contractors, citing agreements that require them, as one puts it, to “defend, indemnify and hold harmless Amazon.” Just last week, an operations manager for Amazon testified in Chicag…

If you or I hire a company to ship a package, we are not generally responsible if the driver the shipper hires runs someone over. This same construct should apply at scale.

Yes but when does it end when someone is working exclusively for your company to your exact specifications. It would be as if I opened a restaurant and my cook was a totally separate subsidiary called "My Restaurant's Cook LLC". I am sorry your food was bad or they poisoned you. They are a completely unrelated sub entity that cooks food to my specifications with my uniform exclusively for me.

So please take up any complaints with your service with them and not our restaurant.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#275

Post by KillahBhyte »

crazygringo wrote: post #37
blakesterz wrote: post #2

Wow, I guess I never really paid attention to the details behind all the Amazon headlines I see. "In April, Amazon announced it would reduce the amount it paid for drivers from $17.25 to $16.00 an hour, according to the letter...Weeks later, Amazon announced a series of raises for its drivers around the country as part of a public relations push following a union drive at an Amazon warehouse" "Currently, Amazon deliv…

> 400 seems crazy, I wondered about UPS. In cities, an Amazon delivery driver might be delivering 5, 10, or 20 packages to the same building. And in those areas where Amazon is using its own delivery network, UPS packages (non-Amazon) will be far fewer -- often just 1 or a couple or none per day. So it's not crazy. The Amazon driver might be elivering far more packages but making fewer stops. Also, a lot of those pac…

There may be some sampling bias as you point out, but it is still crazy from my perspective. I would suspect that UPS and the other major carriers have optimized this task to death. With the right bundling and route optimization for a specific city or set of parcels I could see some level of improvement due to the things you mention.

But 200-300% efficiency gains over businesses that have been profitably providing this service for years? Its exceptional enough to warrant being called crazy at first glance.

From the article,

"The two Portland delivery companies are demanding a cap at 250 packages and 150 stops per 8.5 hour route"

Which seems to indicate that they realize that some bundling will occur and accept it as long as there is an upper bounds on both metrics.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#276

Post by crazygringo »

KillahBhyte wrote: post #275
crazygringo wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 400 seems crazy, I wondered about UPS. In cities, an Amazon delivery driver might be delivering 5, 10, or 20 packages to the same building. And in those areas where Amazon is using its own delivery network, UPS packages (non-Amazon) will be far fewer -- often just 1 or a couple or none per day. So it's not crazy. The Amazon driver might be elivering far more packages but making fewer stops. Also, a lot of those pac…

There may be some sampling bias as you point out, but it is still crazy from my perspective. I would suspect that UPS and the other major carriers have optimized this task to death. With the right bundling and route optimization for a specific city or set of parcels I could see some level of improvement due to the things you mention. But 200-300% efficiency gains over businesses that have been profitably providing th…

> I would suspect that UPS and the other major carriers have optimized this task to death.

In the end a great deal of it comes down to volume per delivery location. If UPS is delivering 1 package per day per location, there's nothing they can do to optimize (except skip locations certain days, which nobody wants). It sucks for them.

Then Amazon comes along with 5 packages per day per location, and it changes the economics completely. By 200-300% is not unreasonable at all.

There's a fact that blew my mind when I first learned it -- that apparently UPS actually loses money delivering packages for Amazon, but makes more profit in the end because the added scale makes it even cheaper to deliver packages for other people. E.g., if it's already dropping off an Amazon package at a location, then it's suddenly much cheaper to drop off the non-Amazon package at the same time.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#277

Post by klyrs »

wongarsu wrote: post #85
viro wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have the money still?

Legally yes. Amazon isn't entitled to money for products they don't deliver.

Even if 1% of the customers fail to demand a refund, this is profitable

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#278

Post by klyrs »

RHSeeger wrote: post #234
GavinMcG wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about being disgruntled, it's about not wanting your family to go hungry because you were only able to deliver three hundred packages in ten hours by taking extra care. There's a difference between destroying someone's stuff because you hate your job and just not caring about someone's stuff because you want your job.

That exact same argument would hold true for drug dealers, mob enforcers, and a whole variety of people that do bad things. Sure, the mob boss is a bad guy for having the enforcer break someone's shop up; but the enforcer is _also_ a bad guy for doing it.

If the mob boss holds leverage over the enforcer (first a debt with threat of violence, and later evidence of the enforcer's crimes) then the enforcer might not be such a bad person. This is a big reason that lower level criminals are offered witness protection in exchange for information

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#280

Post by WalterBright »

cartoonworld wrote: post #273
WalterBright wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It sounds like Amazon strong arms these companies into ONLY serving them. I don't really understand this. Amazon can't "strong arm" you unless you let them. If Amazon "requires" you to dump your other clients, you can also "require" that such a clause means they must offer compensating guarantees and more money. Sheesh. Don't start a business where the business plan is to have only one customer, or at least if you…

>Don't start a business where the business plan is to have only one customer, or at least if you do, don't complain when they realize they have you over a barrel. This is great advice, such good advice that it should be given over and over. Unfortunately, there is someone out there who hasn't heard it yet. Amazon will just shop and shop until they find that person.

It's a rookie mistake. I signed a couple bad contracts before I learned that lesson.
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