Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down • Hacker News Board

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#261

Post by WalterBright » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:15 PM UTC

kjs3 wrote: post #256

blck wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like Amazon strong arms these companies into ONLY serving them. FTA: "The incident is notable as it appears to be the first public example in the United States of Amazon delivery service partners, small businesses that deliver packages exclusively for Amazon" This is the program for Amazon Delivery Service Partners https://logistics.amazon.com/ Seems to me it's basically Amazon Flex but for people with capi…

That's exactly it. You get sold on "You get a slice of the amazing growth of Amazon", but are buying into the fact Amazon can cut you out at any time, for any reason, and you have no recourse.

> the fact Amazon can cut you out at any time, for any reason

That's why you READ THE CONTRACT before signing it, because they can't do that unless it is in the contract. It's the whole point of a contract.

Now, if you don't like the terms in the contract, negotiate. Yes, you can negotiate. Yes, you are entitled to negotiate. Yes, you are a sucker if you accept the other party's opening default contract.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#262

Post by WalterBright » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:17 PM UTC

softwaredoug wrote: post #119

> "The companies were losing money and employees trying to satisfy Amazon and their constant abusive changes,” Tom Rask, an attorney for Last Mile and Triton, told Motherboard. "You have to hire numerous drivers who may or may not be working. One day Amazon dictates that you have thirty routes, the next day forty, then the day after twenty. You’re supposed to have enough drivers for back-up while Amazon is lowering p…

> their constant abusive changes

What does their contract with Amazon say? Who would sign a contract that permits "constant abusive changes"?

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#263

Post by ConceptJunkie » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

wongarsu wrote: post #81

subhro wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points. But, with Amazon taking the lion’s share of online sales, how much of delivery is left outside of Amazon? I am not advocating for Amazon, just wondering if this move is sustainable for the employees while Amazon gets (theoretically) strong armed.

If Amazon's deal is bad and nobody else offers delivery work, companies will just leave the delivery business. Neither the equipment nor the skill set is highly specialized, so switching to something more profitable is comparatively easy.

If you have the skills and/or capital to do that, yes. I suspect a lot of delivery companies enter into this deal because it's a way to get up and running, and earning money, quickly, without a whole lot of capital or expertise. The downside of doing this is that your beholden to Amazon. The downside of not doing this is that you might not have a job.

I'm certainly not defending Amazon in any way, but trying to understand why so many people are in this position, and this seems like a reasonable explanation.

Unfortunately, I have no idea what the answer might be, except that no one is going to like it in the short term.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#264

Post by m463 » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

kjs3 wrote: post #251

softwaredoug wrote: post #119

> "The companies were losing money and employees trying to satisfy Amazon and their constant abusive changes,” Tom Rask, an attorney for Last Mile and Triton, told Motherboard. "You have to hire numerous drivers who may or may not be working. One day Amazon dictates that you have thirty routes, the next day forty, then the day after twenty. You’re supposed to have enough drivers for back-up while Amazon is lowering p…

If you're building your business around 1 client who isn't the government, I would humbly argue you're doing it wrong.

I've heard of this happening with small companies. They have a product, are slowly growing their business then someone big like costco wants to order a LOT of the product for sale everywhere.

It's risky to ramp up the business when the one customer may (and will probably) stop ordering abruptly.

also, why don't consumers spread their amazon purchases evenly throughout the week? :)

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#265

Post by OJFord » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

dfxm12 wrote: post #252

sokoloff wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may not like that my electric utility burns coal, but I like my lights to work more. You can’t sit around worrying about every single imperfection in the world and accomplish much of anything.

Not just that, the fact of the matter you and I don't have very much of an effect on these things. We can't choose how our energy is produced, and we don't use anywhere near as much energy as a company like Amazon. This is where government regulations must come into play.

> We can't choose how our energy is produced

Well, you can buy it from one of those 'green energy' companies... I dislike the marketing a lot (as though it isn't fungible and you are somehow getting different, greener electricity piped to you than your neighbour) but it does work in the sense that you can shift the needle by buying your (essentially just as not-green as if you paid (less to) anyone else) electricity from someone who has whatever commitment to fund green projects or buy the 'green wholesale' stuff or however it works.

(Not that I do that.)

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#266

Post by mcguire » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:20 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #258

blck wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like Amazon strong arms these companies into ONLY serving them. FTA: "The incident is notable as it appears to be the first public example in the United States of Amazon delivery service partners, small businesses that deliver packages exclusively for Amazon" This is the program for Amazon Delivery Service Partners https://logistics.amazon.com/ Seems to me it's basically Amazon Flex but for people with capi…

> It sounds like Amazon strong arms these companies into ONLY serving them. I don't really understand this. Amazon can't "strong arm" you unless you let them. If Amazon "requires" you to dump your other clients, you can also "require" that such a clause means they must offer compensating guarantees and more money. Sheesh. Don't start a business where the business plan is to have only one customer, or at least if you…

My impression is that these businesses are started specifically to work for Amazon.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#267

Post by mcguire » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:22 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #261

kjs3 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly it. You get sold on "You get a slice of the amazing growth of Amazon", but are buying into the fact Amazon can cut you out at any time, for any reason, and you have no recourse.

> the fact Amazon can cut you out at any time, for any reason That's why you READ THE CONTRACT before signing it, because they can't do that unless it is in the contract . It's the whole point of a contract. Now, if you don't like the terms in the contract, negotiate. Yes, you can negotiate. Yes, you are entitled to negotiate. Yes, you are a sucker if you accept the other party's opening default contract.

Or perhaps "don't get into a contractual relationship with someone much more powerful than you.

But that's exactly the point of the system Amazon set up. They don't want to deal with UPS/USPS/etc.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#268

Post by tablespoon » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

AmVess wrote: post #210

jeremyjh wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it looks like Amazon is running these businesses without the risk or accountability that comes from that. It’s just another shell game to evade regulation akin to Microsoft’s permanent contractors or gig economy workers

That's essentially it. They outsource the loss of delivering packages and make the company pay for it on top of it. I remember when this program came out and it was an exceedingly bad deal on the surface. I was surprised to see anyone buy into it.

> I remember when this program came out and it was an exceedingly bad deal on the surface. I was surprised to see anyone buy into it.

I have no actual firsthand knowledge about this program, but I wonder if part of it was an appeal to (for lack of a better term) some people's ignorant individualist optimism (e.g. the idea that other people will fail because they're slackers, but they can succeed because they're smarter, can work harder, etc.).

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#269

Post by WalterBright » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:29 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #267

WalterBright wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the fact Amazon can cut you out at any time, for any reason That's why you READ THE CONTRACT before signing it, because they can't do that unless it is in the contract . It's the whole point of a contract. Now, if you don't like the terms in the contract, negotiate. Yes, you can negotiate. Yes, you are entitled to negotiate. Yes, you are a sucker if you accept the other party's opening default contract.

Or perhaps "don't get into a contractual relationship with someone much more powerful than you. But that's exactly the point of the system Amazon set up. They don't want to deal with UPS/USPS/etc.

I once had a contract with a very large and powerful corporation. They violated the terms. They laughed at me. I sued them and won.

Contracts work, they're a great leveler.

P.S. The breach was so bad, my lawyer took the case on contingency.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#270

Post by zh3 » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:29 PM UTC

softwaredoug wrote: post #119

> "The companies were losing money and employees trying to satisfy Amazon and their constant abusive changes,” Tom Rask, an attorney for Last Mile and Triton, told Motherboard. "You have to hire numerous drivers who may or may not be working. One day Amazon dictates that you have thirty routes, the next day forty, then the day after twenty. You’re supposed to have enough drivers for back-up while Amazon is lowering p…

That sounds pretty sweet compared to the zero-hours contracts in the UK [0] - no obligation to provide any work at all to the employee, hence 'zero-hours'.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-hour_contract