HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests • Hacker News Board

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#281

Post by wolverine876 » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

vmception wrote: post #274

wolverine876 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you are confusing your indoctrination of good and inclusive with democracy. People like to talk about good and inclusive as if they aren't universal values. Good is a value in every culture and religion; it's human nature; we aren't sociopaths. Just off the top of my head, there's the fundamentals of the Bible, 'love they neighbor, love thy god'. There's the Mandate of Heaven in Imperial China, which said o…

These really aren’t definitions of democracy Constitutions provide inclusiveness, constitutions are not unique to any system of governance, and can be the basis for any form of governance Collaboration with the people willing to abide by the system isn’t unique to any system of governance, and is required by all systems Democracy is just rule by majority

> Democracy is just rule by majority

It's not, by any meaningful definition, and not how people who study it think about it. Democracy's are rule by majority and, just as essentially, protection of minority rights. You need both or you have nothing. The Bill of Rights in the US Constitution is the best known example.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#282

Post by dumb1224 » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #273

dumb1224 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt anyone with the right mind would support that, wouldn't you agree? But I'm afraid nobody has perfect information. People in mainland China read anything with filters and are aware of what's really going on, so I don't think it should be that different elsewhere.

> I'm afraid nobody has perfect information. People in mainland China read anything with filters and are aware of what's really going on, so I don't think it should be that different elsewhere. That's a false equivalency, like saying 'people in Pyonyang aren't perfectly free, nor are people in New York, so it's basically the same.' It's not at all the same.

I didn't equate anything to anything. I simply pointed out that no one has perfect information. What you read about China might be a mix of many true and false (maybe exaggerated) information. I'm not even comparing different population. If I wasn't clear then I apologise.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#283

Post by mucholove » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #259

mucholove wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is quite proudly a Republic with Democratic characteristics. The only democracy is Switzerland. Switzerland solves the problem of populist tyrannical capture by having an Executive Council instead of a President. More recently, I’ve come to the conclusion that all Republics are doomed to fail. One should never let an “expert” make a decision for you. They will over time deceive you because they will always be a li…

> It is quite proudly a Republic with Democratic characteristics. Americans have long referred to themselves, quite proudly, as a democracy. The distinction is otherwise a technicality for political scientists. A recent political trend has one group, which fears getting outvoted, saying that it's not, that it's a 'republic' (they, of course, that they won't be the ones excluded from power). But the distinction is the…

I think you are confounding a few things.

In Switzerland you have 4 referendums a year where the demos, the people, make decisions in concert.

In most republics, all you get to do is elect a representative. Some US states do hold referendums like California. This means that some republics do have representatives and the people share decision making power. This however does not happen at the level of the American Federal government. So far as I know, you can only vote on having someone speak for you and you are not part of the decision. These representatives are much more susceptible to capture than the entire demos.

It would be nice if the etymology of Rep in Republic came from Representation because that is all you get for sure. Sadly, that is not the case.

As to the stability of governments—I would also agree that a Republic is more robust and long lived than a tyranny. However, I still hold that a Republic is likely to end in tyranny because the incentive and the likelihood to capture becomes enticing and likely.

We do not disagree here. Would like to know if the distinction between the decision making power of a Swiss citizen and the decision making power of an American citizen seem meaningfully different to you as they do to me. The difference becomes even more stark if you compare the Dominican Republic and Switzerland as the Dominican Republic has even less democratic aspects than the US Federal Government (which incidentally has fewer Democratic characteristics than US states)

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#284

Post by bosswipe » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

Dah00n wrote: post #153

bosswipe wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, protests are the impotent desperate cry of the unheard. I love of the free because, no matter how much corruption, we will not lose that voice of last resort. Millions of us are willing to fight to the death to preserve it.

If it doesn't make any difference, why is it important? It seems it is a security valve working directly against the average citizen that is "willing to fight to the death to preserve it". It is there to keep the status quo.

We preserve it because we don't want only powerful special interests to be allowed to speak and be heard. We are willing to die for our freedoms because we believe in the idea that we the people are our own rulers and we will fight to keep the power . If it is so useless why does China work so hard to prevent any protest?

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#285

Post by vmception » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #281

vmception wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These really aren’t definitions of democracy Constitutions provide inclusiveness, constitutions are not unique to any system of governance, and can be the basis for any form of governance Collaboration with the people willing to abide by the system isn’t unique to any system of governance, and is required by all systems Democracy is just rule by majority

> Democracy is just rule by majority It's not, by any meaningful definition, and not how people who study it think about it. Democracy's are rule by majority and, just as essentially, protection of minority rights. You need both or you have nothing. The Bill of Rights in the US Constitution is the best known example.

Those are factors of constitutions and has nothing inherently to do with democracies or any system

Authoritarian dictatorships and single party countries have constitutions that give the same guarantees as seen in the Bill of Rights and other areas of the US Constitution

You are conflating the definition of democracy with ideals you were taught to respect. This is indoctrination by definition of accepting a set of beliefs uncritically.

Instead of trying to argue that point or differences between constitutional countries, you could just drop your expanded definition of democracy in favor of the rule by majority one.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#286

Post by nindalf » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 5:06 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #254

nindalf wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lying? Manipulating? What? Is it wrong for a politician to mirror the opinions of their voters? That’s literally what a representative democracy is supposed to be. Is it wrong for a person to express their heart felt opinion to folks who like and trust them? Isn’t that what all human communication is? Obama did the right thing, in both 2008 and 2012. If he does 2008 differently, he remains a Senator with no national…

The ends don’t justify the means, but you hear a lot of elites talk about tricking the population, because they think the average person is dumb. Then they can get elected and can really change the laws when they are in power to help their subjects who “clearly can’t help themselves”.

Electing a representative who will make decisions on your behalf is what representative democracy is.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#287

Post by bosswipe » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

answerretards wrote: post #235

bsanr2 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I scoff at the people criticizing the BLM protests and associated riots. We should have learned this lesson wrt the anti-war protests during the Bush years: when the person whose actions you need to change are absolutely intransigent, attempting to convince them directly is not an effective strategy, because they will not be convinced. Instead, the most immediate goal must be to liquify the set status quo…

This comment made me very very mad, very strongly strongly to the point I made this account even though I don't usually comment on HN. You must be one example of somebody that live mostly in peaceful democratic society. You've never seen actual blood, war, limbs, raped girls, beheaded people? heads rolling and kicked down like a soccer ball? girls with vaginas stuck by sticks? I've seen a few, and it happened in a ci…

In my ethics if you don't give a fuck about all the injustices that happen to black people when they aren't protesting then your morals are evil.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#288

Post by tdeck » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #268

tdeck wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently read the book The Dictator's Handbook, which discussed this topic among others. It makes the argument that for such a movement to succeed, the existing regime must be destabilized in a way that makes its key supporters lose confidence in the regime's ability to continue to reward them. Often this is because a leader is sick, or the economy collapses and the leadership runs out of money. When that happens,…

Who wrote the Dictator's Handbook? I haven't heard of it. But yes, I think that's the basic idea. There are many levers to political power. Sometimes people think that authoritarians rule by fiat, like a god, but they also are balancing and managing many political factors (though not so much the free will of the people).

Alastair Smith and Bruce Bueno de Mesquita. I'm not familiar with either of them or with other work in this space, but I found their arguments compelling.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#289

Post by dirtyid » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #175

dirtyid wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jimmy Lai + affiliates getting stomped for colluding with foreign forces is long overdue. Zero reason for HK publisher to meet with Pompeo and other US officials. Ditto with other politicians charged with collusion, i.e. those who asked US for sanctions to counter "one country" interests. One thing PRC intelligence is good at is catching spies and crushing foreign influence. The PRC "One System" which always had full…

"Zero reason for HK publisher to meet with Pompeo and other US officials." That is called freedom of association. You want to meet somebody else, go ahead. You do not have to state your reasons to the intelligence service of your country or explain yourself in a court. "crushing foreign influence" If all countries other than China do that do you, you will live in a world totally devoid of friends. What is so bad abou…

Free association with ex-CIA director / head of state department during period of extreme Sino-US tensions? So much so that their meeting was posted on state department website implying it affected foreign policy decision making. Ditto with HK lawmakers who coordinated with US to impose sanctions on HK. PRC under One Country has full authority over foreign policy. So no, not free association, treason. Incidentally these people were sensibly prosecuted at first available opportunity.

>What is so bad about foreign influence that it must be crushed?

Read the foreign policy series on how PRC was thoroughly infiltrated by CIA thanks to NGOs. See how HK is spy capital of Asia - there's a reason US HK consulate employs over 1,000+. An situation that was made possible because HK refused to pass NSL and thought it could exist in an national security state of exception. That kind of foreign influence gets crushed anywhere.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#290

Post by GordonS » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 5:30 PM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #265

GordonS wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. Haha, as a westerner, I believe peaceful protest is invariably futile. Take the 2003 protests against the Iraq war for example - 3 million protested in Rome, 1.5 million in Madrid, 1 million in London, and millions more across the west. What happened? They went to war based on…

> Take the 2003 protests against the Iraq war for example - 3 million protested in Rome, 1.5 million in Madrid, 1 million in London, and millions more across the west. What happened? They went to war based on lies anyway. It's always the same. The flaw is applying a binary metric: It's not that protestors don't have either absolute power or no power. Protests have influence. Those protests limited the scope of the wa…

> Those protests limited the scope of the war and their governments' involvement. Imagine the world if nobody protested, the free hand governments would have had if nobody cared.

> The Iraq War was conducted while constantly pushing back against world opinion. The cost in political capital was high; those protests imposed real costs and real limitations on the leaders. That's how democracy works

Did they change the scope of the war? I reckon they just did what the wanted regardless. Something like a million dead in Iraq (never mind Afghanistan), many times more wounded or maimed, vile treatment of POWs by US military, absolute evil undertaken by the CIA at Black sites, and of course, the enrichment of many a rich pocket. What real loss in "political capital" was there for fabricating evidence and using it for justification for invading Iraq? What meaningful consequences were there for any of it?

> I can tell you that in my community, the George Floyd protests put political leaders in a position to respond immediately or be swept away by the next vote.

I admire your optimism, but the impression I get from my US friends and colleagues paints a different picture. The media seldom even covering peaceful protests, hazing of civilian populations with helicopters and patrol cars, and several months of increased police brutality (because how else would they respond to protests about police brutality?!), with insane quantities of tear gas being used, numerous people beaten, tasered and shot with rubber bullets, several people losing eyes etc. Video after video, image after image of police brutality and negligence. Police departments blatantly fabricating evidence. And of course, more killing of black men and women under the most dubious of circumstances. Some of my friends have been involved in protests, and one was badly beaten and hospitised by a violent police officer - the whole thing was caught on film, yet the police charged him! Nothing meaningful has changed as a result of all these protests. It likely won't any time soon unless something more radical happens.

> Whenever you think protests are futile, imagine the world without them. Then get out there and contribute - the world doesn't need people sitting on the sidelines, criticizing.

I've done my bit, protesting on the street about things I care about. It felt good to feel like I was doing something, but eventually I came to the conclusion that I was deluding myself. None of our actions made any difference - and certainly where foreign policy, the military and war are concerned, the government are going to do whatever the hell they want regardless.

I've caved and given in, for sure; emotionally, I have nothing left to give. But I'm not criticising those who do still get out there - if you feel like it makes a difference, or even if it just makes you feel good, then more power to you.