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HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

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Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#271

Post by wolverine876 »

saiya-jin wrote: post #193
blast wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question to wyager or anyone else about that second point: what are some examples of political changes that people think were caused by protests, but in reality were already in development before the protest started? Also, who are the best-known advocates for this idea? If the answer is "I, wyager, came up with it", that's totally fine, I'm just curious if the concept has an interesting history.

Possibly Ghandi and India's independence? I would expect if British were still a major global force after WWII and were willing to project it, there would have to be a (successful) regular war for independence. This can be probably applied on a lot of other former colonies. Also, former Czechoslovakia in 1989 - the loss of communism. A lot of people back there think mass peaceful protests finished the era. But the fa…

> Possibly Ghandi and India's independence? I would expect if British were still a major global force after WWII and were willing to project it, there would have to be a (successful) regular war for independence.

First, that's speculation about an imagined history, not evidence. Regardless, protest can be an influence without, by itself, being decisive. Protestors don't have absolute power (a horrible idea, even to most protestors!). No single factor is decisive by itself.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#272

Post by wolverine876 »

dumb1224 wrote: post #194
wyager wrote: post #5

I lived in HK 2018-2020, leaving around the passage of the “national security law”. I think HK is a perfect case study of a line of fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. This is wrong for at least two reasons. The first mistake is failing to recognize that many governments (case in point) are not nearly as vulnerabl…

I'm wondering why most of the comments here are not discussing the content of the article but rather the general HK protest. Most of people in China understand the value of rule of law. And we never deny that the environment there is far from any democratic western society. But if you read the article and are the readers of the mentioned media outlets you would agree a bit that those are a little dubious (Post852, Wi…

> But if you read the article and are the readers of the mentioned media outlets you would agree a bit that those are a little dubious (Post852, Winandmac Media etc, Apple Daily included). It's definitely not good to have a sweeping ban, but pretending all non-mainland chinese media is pro democracy and liberal values and not populist (sometimes provocative and radicalised) to attract viewers is a little naive in my humble opinion.

Well, you can express your point of view, but don't tell everyone else what they think. If imperfection were a sin to deny rights and power, then who would have rights and power? Certainly not the Chinese government!

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#273

Post by wolverine876 »

dumb1224 wrote: post #216
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just to be clear you actually believe that media being populist justify abitrary detentions, jailing people from indefinite duration without ever putting them to trial while threatening them with life in prison if not straight murder?

I doubt anyone with the right mind would support that, wouldn't you agree? But I'm afraid nobody has perfect information. People in mainland China read anything with filters and are aware of what's really going on, so I don't think it should be that different elsewhere.

> I'm afraid nobody has perfect information. People in mainland China read anything with filters and are aware of what's really going on, so I don't think it should be that different elsewhere.

That's a false equivalency, like saying 'people in Pyonyang aren't perfectly free, nor are people in New York, so it's basically the same.' It's not at all the same.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#274

Post by vmception »

wolverine876 wrote: post #261
vmception wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Direct representation is true democracy. Does democracy mean something else to you? I think you are confusing your indoctrination of good and inclusive with democracy. Or Vice versa. I’ve seen that alot.

> I think you are confusing your indoctrination of good and inclusive with democracy. People like to talk about good and inclusive as if they aren't universal values. Good is a value in every culture and religion; it's human nature; we aren't sociopaths. Just off the top of my head, there's the fundamentals of the Bible, 'love they neighbor, love thy god'. There's the Mandate of Heaven in Imperial China, which said o…

These really aren’t definitions of democracy

Constitutions provide inclusiveness, constitutions are not unique to any system of governance, and can be the basis for any form of governance

Collaboration with the people willing to abide by the system isn’t unique to any system of governance, and is required by all systems

Democracy is just rule by majority

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#275

Post by TheParkShark »

Dah00n wrote: post #177
tjpnz wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US starts wars all the time. The CCP would have made a grave error in judgement if it thought this would be any different. If the US walked away from Taiwan that puts South Korea, Japan and other allies in SE Asia at risk. Not going to happen.

The US rarely starts wars with anyone who can hurt it. Even a conventional war with China would be extremely different than anything the US has seen since WW2 and in some ways this would be worse. Do you think the modern US has the stomach for multiple sunken aircraft carriers, WW2 or Korean war style casualties, etc. all the while with the US home front without products it cannot live without? It would completely de…

You say this like China wouldn’t suffer. Their economy will come to a screeching halt when they have no one to export their goods to. The CCP would lose whatever faith their citizens have left in them.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#276

Post by TheParkShark »

Dah00n wrote: post #183
tjpnz wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit different. While China did for all intents and purposes violate the agreement it had signed in the 90s nobody would question the legitimacy of the handover itself. Hong Kong of course doesn't have the American military machine deployed within its borders either. Having driven by some of those bases I'm kind of in awe - and that's just the stuff on public roads.

It doesn't really matter in the big picture. How would the US look in a month or six if we by war stopped all products from China today? The US would become unrecognisable. The economy would be so destroyed it would hardly be a victory no matter what casualties says on the two sides. Even if we nuked some of our own cities we would be better off than after winning a conventional war against China. No, a war against C…

How would china look with no money coming in for six months? China is incapable of standing on their own. Propped up by IT theft and copycat companies funded by the CCP. Dry up the money and it’ll be the USSR pt 2 in China.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#277

Post by wolverine876 »

answerretards wrote: post #235
bsanr2 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I scoff at the people criticizing the BLM protests and associated riots. We should have learned this lesson wrt the anti-war protests during the Bush years: when the person whose actions you need to change are absolutely intransigent, attempting to convince them directly is not an effective strategy, because they will not be convinced. Instead, the most immediate goal must be to liquify the set status quo…

This comment made me very very mad, very strongly strongly to the point I made this account even though I don't usually comment on HN. You must be one example of somebody that live mostly in peaceful democratic society. You've never seen actual blood, war, limbs, raped girls, beheaded people? heads rolling and kicked down like a soccer ball? girls with vaginas stuck by sticks? I've seen a few, and it happened in a ci…

You've seen some horrible things; I'm sorry; I've read about things like that and made a point of not turning my head, of being a (very limited) witness, but I can't imagine.

The very good news is that those aren't realistic risks in the U.S.. Beyond mass lynchings in the South (e.g., Tulsa) - a major exception - they haven't happened in US history, and even then I haven't heard of horrors that extreme. And note that those mass lynchings (and individual lynchings) were conducted by the people in power, not protestors against it.

We can't gun people down because we are afraid. Someone breaking a bottle or a window shouldn't be killed - that would be murder. The people in power often are the worst threat to order.

Consider the disorder people suffer when they are oppressed and abused, often physically, by the state, for example when police beat, shoot, and arrest them for things they didn't do, and they are imprisoned for much of their life. Do those people deserve justice and order like you and I do? Should they be able to walk down a street and conduct their lives in peace? If you get assaulted by a police officer or a mugger, what's the difference? (In fact the former is worse - you can't fight back, and the consequences are imprisonment.)

> A lot of immigrants for example, don't generally give a shit ...

Can you back this up, both that immigrants have opinions that differ from the public and that they match what you say?

Immigrants are also targets of police brutality, and have a whole division of government, ICE, that under Trump seemed to embrace cruelty toward them.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#278

Post by wolverine876 »

bakatubas wrote: post #40
xwolfi wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But violent protests made it worse. The gov removed the extradition law at first but we gave them the opportunity to do worse to restore order and Im forced to back it because I prefer the national security law and some order than no law and no order which it was starting to look like... However you re so very right: protests movements in the west are barely responsible for change. What s responsible for change is sl…

All forms of government no matter how big or small are fcorrupt. That’s how it works—they/them who bends the will of the masses wins. Either that’s done by manipulating folks into believing the next candidate will “take their pain away”, or by inflicting pain for non-compliance. Or they change the rules: voter suppression, censorship, etc and pretend they “won the election.” Or they just murder the opposition and bla…

It's plainly fallacious to say there is no difference in corruption, conduct, and outcomes of different governments and different forms of government. To say 'all governments are corrupt' is the same as saying 'all people are violent'; but some are murderers, some got in shoving matches with their siblings when they were 12, and there is the entire range in between.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#279

Post by wolverine876 »

GordonS wrote: post #139
bhawks wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here you appear to know that the real strategy is waiting. Eventually, Xi will die, and it's more likely than not that his successors will liberalize. What leads you to think this will be the case? The west has been trying to spread liberal democracy for over the past 100 years. It is successful in some places, but not in others. There doesn't seem to be magic formula, and as technology disrupts human interactions…

> The west has been trying to spread liberal democracy for over the past 100 years. It is successful in some places, but not in others. I think success largely depends on how democracy arrives - we've seen time and time again that forcing it upon a country (whether by military force or the more skullduggerous, CIA kind of force) is doomed to failure. I believe it needs to come naturally, slowly, over time.

It's hard to deliver democracy and freedom by oppressive means; the means undermine the ends.

However, it's also a common error of the privileged to consign the suffering to wait for a slow, gradual process that results in their entire lives passing by, and those of their children and grandchildren, etc.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#280

Post by xxpor »

tablespoon wrote: post #20
xxpor wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The first mistake is failing to recognize that many governments (case in point) are not nearly as vulnerable to bad PR, I mean we're talking about the same government on the bad side of the Tank Man photo. I think that's kind of obvious. The difference is in HK I don't think people were anticipating China to completely break the Basic Law and the handover agreement. They were protesting the elected HK government, no…

> They were protesting the elected HK government, not Beijing directly. I don't think it's ever been correct to say the HK government was elected. It had some elected elements, but they were never in the majority: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Ko... . IIRC, one of the five protest demands was for a fully elected government.

The FCs are elected, but by people in the function it sounds like. That's an election, a weird one, but still an election. I'm sure Beijing was pulling the strings but it's not like they were directly appointed.
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