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HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

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Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#231

Post by bsanr2 »

wyager wrote: post #5

I lived in HK 2018-2020, leaving around the passage of the “national security law”. I think HK is a perfect case study of a line of fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. This is wrong for at least two reasons. The first mistake is failing to recognize that many governments (case in point) are not nearly as vulnerabl…

This is why I scoff at the people criticizing the BLM protests and associated riots. We should have learned this lesson wrt the anti-war protests during the Bush years: when the person whose actions you need to change are absolutely intransigent, attempting to convince them directly is not an effective strategy, because they will not be convinced. Instead, the most immediate goal must be to liquify the set status quo; changes can be insisted upon more easily when the illusion of stability has been broken and there is less friction.

Marginalized people usually serve as a sink for the rage and violence of people who are in power but are still bitter because an imperfect world remains perfect. Usually, these marginalized people simply eat those injuries, protecting society's stability. With riots; with graphic images of police beatings and murders plastered on TV and the internet; with infrastructure shutdowns; with resumed talk of things like police reform, social justice, and reparations, these people instead conserve and then redirect that rage and violence back out to the larger society to deal with. It's understandable that many do not like this disturbance of their peace, but that's kind of the point. And BLM et al. are not manufacturing it out of whole cloth; it's simply the intolerable oppression of an imperfect society, visited upon people who are used to shuffling it off onto lessers.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#232

Post by nojokes »

naturalauction wrote: post #229
throwaway292a9 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how so? citizens don't want more noisy minarets, the people that want the minarets can stay in the middle east.

>citizens don't want more noisy minarets The referendum wasn't on noise or the legality of minarets broadcasting sound though, it was on the structures themselves. Churches can still build steeples (or even noisy belltowers). I fail to see why the simple construction of a minaret harms anyone any more than say a steeple of a church of a different denomination. If anything it just seems like legislation to tell Muslim…

Maybe people enjoy church bells but not the calls from the minaret?

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#233

Post by nojokes »

naturalauction wrote: post #229
throwaway292a9 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how so? citizens don't want more noisy minarets, the people that want the minarets can stay in the middle east.

>citizens don't want more noisy minarets The referendum wasn't on noise or the legality of minarets broadcasting sound though, it was on the structures themselves. Churches can still build steeples (or even noisy belltowers). I fail to see why the simple construction of a minaret harms anyone any more than say a steeple of a church of a different denomination. If anything it just seems like legislation to tell Muslim…

If anything it just seems like legislation to tell Muslims that they are not welcome in Switzerland.

I think it is exactly that and this should be their right.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#234

Post by nojokes »

naturalauction wrote: post #229
throwaway292a9 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how so? citizens don't want more noisy minarets, the people that want the minarets can stay in the middle east.

>citizens don't want more noisy minarets The referendum wasn't on noise or the legality of minarets broadcasting sound though, it was on the structures themselves. Churches can still build steeples (or even noisy belltowers). I fail to see why the simple construction of a minaret harms anyone any more than say a steeple of a church of a different denomination. If anything it just seems like legislation to tell Muslim…

I fail to see why the simple construction of a minaret harms anyone any more than say a steeple of a church of a different denomination.

Minarets do not build themselves. There would be very possibly some money and influence involved from countries that do not share Swiss people values.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#235

Post by answerretards »

bsanr2 wrote: post #231
wyager wrote: post #5

I lived in HK 2018-2020, leaving around the passage of the “national security law”. I think HK is a perfect case study of a line of fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. This is wrong for at least two reasons. The first mistake is failing to recognize that many governments (case in point) are not nearly as vulnerabl…

This is why I scoff at the people criticizing the BLM protests and associated riots. We should have learned this lesson wrt the anti-war protests during the Bush years: when the person whose actions you need to change are absolutely intransigent, attempting to convince them directly is not an effective strategy, because they will not be convinced. Instead, the most immediate goal must be to liquify the set status quo…

This comment made me very very mad, very strongly strongly to the point I made this account even though I don't usually comment on HN.

You must be one example of somebody that live mostly in peaceful democratic society. You've never seen actual blood, war, limbs, raped girls, beheaded people? heads rolling and kicked down like a soccer ball? girls with vaginas stuck by sticks? I've seen a few, and it happened in a city, in.a.fucking.riot You wanna know how many people died? 1500 fucking people you fucking idiot. In a big fucking city. The army had to come down to quell the riot.

BLM can protest peacefully, otherwise we normal people don't give a fuck about their message is. There are many people out there than just Black people. A lot of immigrants for example, don't generally give a shit about what happened this past 2 years about BLM this BLM that. They just want their stores not to be burned by these uncivilized people. No they don't have fucking insurance you fucking idiot.

BLM can protest peacefully, otherwise be prepared to be gunned down. I don't care who he/she/it. Travel my property, burn my property, get ready for a lead in the head.

I am not a Trump supporter, and as a matter of fact a Democrat, voted for Biden. but I'll lick Trump's boots and vote hard hard hard right if it means that I can prevent of defunding the police and keep the order.

The politicians that do not condemn the riot and supporting defunding the police are simply out there for political points. They need to go down!

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#236

Post by AussieWog93 »

an_opabinia wrote: post #11
wyager wrote: post #5

I lived in HK 2018-2020, leaving around the passage of the “national security law”. I think HK is a perfect case study of a line of fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. This is wrong for at least two reasons. The first mistake is failing to recognize that many governments (case in point) are not nearly as vulnerabl…

> the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. I understand you are making a stylized appeal for liberal political change via violence. China's leadership has peaks and troughs of liberalism, and violence there, in the Soviet Union, Venezuela, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran and in many other places around the world was followed more often by a hardening, not a softeni…

>Eventually, Xi will die, and it's more likely than not that his successors will liberalize.

Based on what evidence?

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#237

Post by RobertKerans »

wyager wrote: post #5

I lived in HK 2018-2020, leaving around the passage of the “national security law”. I think HK is a perfect case study of a line of fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. This is wrong for at least two reasons. The first mistake is failing to recognize that many governments (case in point) are not nearly as vulnerabl…

It's not Western though. You're right in that it generally doesn't work, but it's well known to only work in specific circumstances. Yes it's part of a political strategy, but the point of it is to demonstrate dignity, and given a state that is susceptible to shame, that greatly aids in the empowerment of blocs within the state to enact change.

In retrospect, yes, it's fallacious thinking from the protesters if they thought they could successfully press for change just via the protests. But that's in retrospect, previously it might have worked. But as you suggest, the Chinese state is in a position where it doesn't have to care and will happily exterminate the protests. Only answer then is violence, but in this situation the only actors capable of that are other states. In which case, peaceful protest, not fighting back seems the logically correct thing to do -- the protestors require the moral high ground and to focus attention on the issue, which they did very successfully. Whether that has much effect -- probably not, China is ridiculously powerful, but they couldn't do much more (I mean, taken to Gandhian logical extremes, recognition of the failure of the non-violent protest should have been followed mass suicide of all the protesters, which is grotesque but hey, that's Gandhi for you).

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#238

Post by Gupie »

GordonS wrote: post #136
wyager wrote: post #5

I lived in HK 2018-2020, leaving around the passage of the “national security law”. I think HK is a perfect case study of a line of fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. This is wrong for at least two reasons. The first mistake is failing to recognize that many governments (case in point) are not nearly as vulnerabl…

> fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. Haha, as a westerner, I believe peaceful protest is invariably futile. Take the 2003 protests against the Iraq war for example - 3 million protested in Rome, 1.5 million in Madrid, 1 million in London, and millions more across the west. What happened? They went to war based on…

However Blair's electability and legacy was fatally damage, and when Cameron next wanted to go to war, to bomb Syria, parliament did not allow it.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#239

Post by AussieWog93 »

Dah00n wrote: post #167
powerapple wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was Obama's contain China strategy declared? The only thing the West didn't predict to happen is that with the development of living standard, Chinese people become more supportive of their government. It has shown again only sanction works: make people suffer, then they will overthrown your enemy.

In 50 years it's as likely to be China that can sanction the US into submission as the US can sanction China. IMO much more likely. The US (and everyone that follows their contain evil strategy) is shooting themselves in the foot.

>In 50 years it's as likely to be China that can sanction the US into submission as the US can sanction China.

Neither country can cripple the economy of the other through sanctions without broad international support. I suspect that in the decades to come, neither nation will command the level of respect required to garner said international support.

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