Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not Western though. You're right in that it generally doesn't work, but it's well known to only work in specific circumstances. Yes it's part of a political strategy, but the point of it is to demonstrate dignity, and given a state that is susceptible to shame, that greatly aids in the empowerment of blocs within the state to enact change. In retrospect, yes, it's fallacious thinking from the protesters if they…
The logical extreme here, I would think, is mass organized emigration to other countries who have offered to willingly take in HK political refugees.
HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests
251–260 of 346 posts
Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests
#252Earlier quoted context omitted.
The local government in Taiwan still claims all of China as its territory, why would they want to be an independent country with only one island?
First off disputed borders are a very common occurrence in geo politics. It rarely prevents country C from recognizing both country A and country B. Outside of the Taiwan case I can't think of a situation where a border claim dispute effectively locked a country out of nearly all international forums (or crippled it to the point of having no significant voice). The situation is very unique to say the least, but let's…
Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests
#253Earlier quoted context omitted.
This. I don’t know why people found Obama’s position on gay marriage so difficult to understand. It was simple. In 2008, he had to win a Democratic primary. This meant echoing the stances that would be popular with Democratic primary voters. In Obama’s case, he needed all of the black vote as well. Only 60% of Democrats in 2008 supported marriage equality, compared to 80% in 2020 ( https://news.gallup.com/poll/350486…
To be honest that sounds like lying and manipulating the public. Not singling out Obama here because all politicians do it to an extent (the ones who don’t never get far). Just calling out it’s not exactly a virtue.
Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
To be honest that sounds like lying and manipulating the public. Not singling out Obama here because all politicians do it to an extent (the ones who don’t never get far). Just calling out it’s not exactly a virtue.
Lying? Manipulating? What? Is it wrong for a politician to mirror the opinions of their voters? That’s literally what a representative democracy is supposed to be. Is it wrong for a person to express their heart felt opinion to folks who like and trust them? Isn’t that what all human communication is? Obama did the right thing, in both 2008 and 2012. If he does 2008 differently, he remains a Senator with no national…
Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests
#255Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is quite proudly a Republic with Democratic characteristics. The only democracy is Switzerland. Switzerland solves the problem of populist tyrannical capture by having an Executive Council instead of a President. More recently, I’ve come to the conclusion that all Republics are doomed to fail. One should never let an “expert” make a decision for you. They will over time deceive you because they will always be a li…
>The only democracy is Switzerland. Switzerland solves the problem of populist tyrannical capture by having an Executive Council instead of a President. But women weren't allowed to vote (in every canton) until 1991. There is a ban on new minarets being constructed (but not other tall buildings). The anti-immigration referendum couldn't be implemented as would have led to dramatic consequences for Switzerland's relat…
Does democracy mean something else to you? I think you are confusing your indoctrination of good and inclusive with democracy. Or Vice versa.
I’ve seen that alot.
Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests
#256I lived in HK 2018-2020, leaving around the passage of the “national security law”. I think HK is a perfect case study of a line of fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. This is wrong for at least two reasons. The first mistake is failing to recognize that many governments (case in point) are not nearly as vulnerabl…
First, it's not 'westerners'. Democracy and peaceful protest are embraced throughout the world: All of North and South America, with few exceptions; almost all of Europe; Japan, S. Korea, Indonesia and the Philippines to extents, India, countries in Africa, etc. And protests happen outside democracy and go back long before it. Gandhi was protesting in a dictatorship; MLK was too, in many ways (it was in many ways a dictatorship for African-Americans).
But what an odd world we have become, where people go out of their way to tell each other these things contrary to what is all around them. As a simple example, look at all the policing and legal reforms, all the social changes, that have happened in response to the George Floyd protests. The Arab Spring happened not long before that. People invest enormous amounts of time and effort in changing public opinion, and causing/stopping protest. Despair seems like a dumb, unpleasant trend.
The people in power want you to think you are powerless; it obviously suits them for you to believe it. Similarly, to suppress votes they say 'your vote doesn't count' - something I've encountered in poor communities. The power is actually yours. History is filled with protests changing the world.
Governments have power only from the consent of the governed. Like the fiat power behind currency, the government's power comes from people giving them that authority - the government says you must do X, and people choose to listen. They don't have nearly enough other power to survive without it, including - or especially including - non-democratic governments. If nobody listens to them, who are they? Just some people talking (ironically, similar to what authoritarians try to say about protestors - nobody listens). What is their authority? And if people don't go to work, if the streets are filled with protest, then it affects many more interests than those in office. You can see why some in power try to spread this idea that you have none.
Protests also demonstrate and galvanize public opinion. People sitting home and feeling alone and powerless are no threat; other people telling them that that they are powerless are ideal. When people see others taking action, when they see they are not alone, then they act.
Sure, life is more complicated than that. Few things happen only because of a protest, but that's just because the world is too complicated for simple solutions. But to say protests aren't a huge factor is really a fantasy of authority, and they push it for a reason. The world is yours.
Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests
#257Earlier quoted context omitted.
Before World War II that was what the world was about for most of its history. Big empires expanding further. Smaller city-states existed through complex diplomatic relations. If they didn't have these, all odds are off.
Of course that's classic historic imperialism I agree, however like you said we are not in such an era anymore and no one, least likely China is to become what you suspected due to the complex economic and political ties. I thought it's worth having an intellectual debate to encourage a better world for everyone, not just polarised opinions that's all.
A collapse of the current status-quo (pax-americana) will force a re-organization of the world map. There is a reason why some countries have disputed claims that they didn't act on (although, militarily, they are within their reach). Such an act will have consequences on the world stage (UN) unless you have a veto-friend.
But if this system is no longer enforced, we'll be back to circles of influences; and any military action that has a positive yield will be executed.
Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests
#258Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is a Cambridge University Press / APSA study about the United States that shows populist swelling or the popular vote rarely results in any legislative change that matches the sentiment, and legislative changes come from well funded special interests that were already there. It is either purely coincidence when those changes match what the protesters want because special interests became interests, or were alre…
This is a reoccurring theme in political science research and yet we still delude ourselves that the United States is a democracy in any form.
If you mean, it doesn't match theoretical models of democracy, of course: Reality is messy. To say there's no democracy in the US doesn't match my experience of my community, state, and country.
Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a reoccurring theme in political science research and yet we still delude ourselves that the United States is a democracy in any form.
It is quite proudly a Republic with Democratic characteristics. The only democracy is Switzerland. Switzerland solves the problem of populist tyrannical capture by having an Executive Council instead of a President. More recently, I’ve come to the conclusion that all Republics are doomed to fail. One should never let an “expert” make a decision for you. They will over time deceive you because they will always be a li…
Americans have long referred to themselves, quite proudly, as a democracy. The distinction is otherwise a technicality for political scientists.
A recent political trend has one group, which fears getting outvoted, saying that it's not, that it's a 'republic' (they, of course, that they won't be the ones excluded from power). But the distinction is theoretical - government by the people, for the people, of the people, to use just one phrase, is what defines the US and the US is a democracy. We the people created the government and make the law.
> More recently, I’ve come to the conclusion that all Republics are doomed to fail.
Well the evidence is pretty bad. The most stable, successful form of government in history is modern democracy. If you want failure, look at the disasters of authoritarian governments, with their civil wars, weak economies, and governing calamities (e.g., hyperinflation, needless wars, etc.).
Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests
#260Earlier quoted context omitted.
> fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. Haha, as a westerner, I believe peaceful protest is invariably futile. Take the 2003 protests against the Iraq war for example - 3 million protested in Rome, 1.5 million in Madrid, 1 million in London, and millions more across the west. What happened? They went to war based on…
However Blair's electability and legacy was fatally damage, and when Cameron next wanted to go to war, to bomb Syria, parliament did not allow it.
I don't think bombing Syria was ever a particularly serious notion for the UK. If the US had pushed us to though, we obviously would have.