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HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

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Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#211

Post by drchickensalad »

refurb wrote: post #106
nindalf wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I don’t know why people found Obama’s position on gay marriage so difficult to understand. It was simple. In 2008, he had to win a Democratic primary. This meant echoing the stances that would be popular with Democratic primary voters. In Obama’s case, he needed all of the black vote as well. Only 60% of Democrats in 2008 supported marriage equality, compared to 80% in 2020 ( https://news.gallup.com/poll/350486…

To be honest that sounds like lying and manipulating the public. Not singling out Obama here because all politicians do it to an extent (the ones who don’t never get far). Just calling out it’s not exactly a virtue.

We have a system where you get a large performance benefit from doing the tactics mentioned above.

Therefore, the system will always be moving towards more consistently acting that way. It's not right or wrong driving much of anything, just survival.

If this is bad, the incentives must be changed; you can't just wish people were nicer, cause even if you got your wish magically, they'd still lose to those that aren't

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#212

Post by mytailorisrich »

starfallg wrote: post #206
mytailorisrich wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No idea why you would say that. I was focussing on foreign policy and geopolitics, which really hasn't changed much since before the PRC. For instance their policy in the South China Sea is not something dreamt up by the CCP. The "9-dash line" predates the CCP and the PRC. It dates back to the ROC and as such is still the official policy in Taiwan as well (they keep quiet because they are too weak and don't want to…

You asserted that key policies will not change. Policy entails a course of action, specifying how aims are achieved. So it isn't a matter of the existence of the 9 dash or 11 dash line, but the route that they would go in pursuing it. I also don't buy the assertion that China's rise as a superpower is somehow more profound than other countries (such as Japan). That just smacks of neo-orientalist sinicism. China's dev…

> but the route that they would go in pursuing it.

They are occupying the area to assert their claim. I don't see how that would change. They would not abandon their newly built bases or stop Navy patrols. That would be contrary to their sovereignty claim.

There's a lot of propaganda on this topic and people are falling for it. But the reality is that China is only following a standard, tried and tested, way to assert sovereignty claims: They occupy the place.

The neighbouring countries, including democracies, are doing exactly the same.

> I also don't buy the assertion that China's rise as a superpower is somehow more profound than other countries (such as Japan).

It's obviously different because China is a superpower. Japan and South Korea are not, they are too small, they both fell under the US's dominance, in part by military means. China is directly challenging US's dominance because it's actually larger than the US are and the Us cannot bully them into submission. That's what's new. The US are used to be in charge, like the Europeans used to be before them. A period of absolute Western dominance that started almost 500 years ago is coming to an end.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#213

Post by _tik_ »

wyager wrote: post #5

I lived in HK 2018-2020, leaving around the passage of the “national security law”. I think HK is a perfect case study of a line of fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. This is wrong for at least two reasons. The first mistake is failing to recognize that many governments (case in point) are not nearly as vulnerabl…

There are many reasons other than the choice of peaceful strategy. The movement doesn't have any clear achievable goals, lacks united leadership. There is a strong opinion the movement is designed to fail. The real goal of the movement is to humiliate CPP. An the violence stage of the protest. My HK relatives, political refuges from cultural revolution time, are more scared of the protester than CCP.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#214

Post by naturalauction »

mucholove wrote: post #207
prince781 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a reoccurring theme in political science research and yet we still delude ourselves that the United States is a democracy in any form.

It is quite proudly a Republic with Democratic characteristics. The only democracy is Switzerland. Switzerland solves the problem of populist tyrannical capture by having an Executive Council instead of a President. More recently, I’ve come to the conclusion that all Republics are doomed to fail. One should never let an “expert” make a decision for you. They will over time deceive you because they will always be a li…

>The only democracy is Switzerland. Switzerland solves the problem of populist tyrannical capture by having an Executive Council instead of a President.

But women weren't allowed to vote (in every canton) until 1991. There is a ban on new minarets being constructed (but not other tall buildings). The anti-immigration referendum couldn't be implemented as would have led to dramatic consequences for Switzerland's relationship with the EU.

From an outside perspective even Switzerland doesn't seem like a "true" democracy.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#215

Post by powerapple »

Dah00n wrote: post #167
powerapple wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was Obama's contain China strategy declared? The only thing the West didn't predict to happen is that with the development of living standard, Chinese people become more supportive of their government. It has shown again only sanction works: make people suffer, then they will overthrown your enemy.

In 50 years it's as likely to be China that can sanction the US into submission as the US can sanction China. IMO much more likely. The US (and everyone that follows their contain evil strategy) is shooting themselves in the foot.

I think many people are seeing the world at where they stand, not taking into consideration of others' position. China and US are at different development stage. The idea of political system is very misleading.

I don't think sanction is right, and I don't think sanction does anything good to countries being sanctioned. And I believe when people's living standard rise, every country will be more democratic and fair.

Is China's political system the reason US is not happy about? I don't think so. It was the same political system 10 years ago, 20 years ago. The reason is that China is stronger now. Unless US has a direct influence on China, it will not tolerate a competitor regardless the political system.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#216

Post by dumb1224 »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #205
dumb1224 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm wondering why most of the comments here are not discussing the content of the article but rather the general HK protest. Most of people in China understand the value of rule of law. And we never deny that the environment there is far from any democratic western society. But if you read the article and are the readers of the mentioned media outlets you would agree a bit that those are a little dubious (Post852, Wi…

So just to be clear you actually believe that media being populist justify abitrary detentions, jailing people from indefinite duration without ever putting them to trial while threatening them with life in prison if not straight murder?

I doubt anyone with the right mind would support that, wouldn't you agree? But I'm afraid nobody has perfect information. People in mainland China read anything with filters and are aware of what's really going on, so I don't think it should be that different elsewhere.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#217

Post by rini17 »

refurb wrote: post #209
danielheath wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it virtuous to be truthful when that means giving up a chance to meaningfully improve the world? Obama presided over many terrible things, but overall the amount of terrible things dropped during his tenure. Not sure virtue is the right word but it’s more complicated than “lying bad”.

You’re arguing the “ends justify the means” which can often end up in some pretty horrible abuses.

What if it is more an observation than argument?

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#218

Post by zentiggr »

refurb wrote: post #106
nindalf wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I don’t know why people found Obama’s position on gay marriage so difficult to understand. It was simple. In 2008, he had to win a Democratic primary. This meant echoing the stances that would be popular with Democratic primary voters. In Obama’s case, he needed all of the black vote as well. Only 60% of Democrats in 2008 supported marriage equality, compared to 80% in 2020 ( https://news.gallup.com/poll/350486…

To be honest that sounds like lying and manipulating the public. Not singling out Obama here because all politicians do it to an extent (the ones who don’t never get far). Just calling out it’s not exactly a virtue.

Behavior follows the rewards. Personal, political, corporate, and especially in the natural world.

Not just politicians, although they are the most visible at it.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#219

Post by throwaway0a5e »

nindalf wrote: post #100
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. To effect policy you have to get elected, and Obama knew quite well that supporting gay marriage in 2008 was a big losing proposition. Regardless of your opinions of Obama's politics, he is not a stupid man. All this nonsense about his position "evolving" is just that, nonsense. Obama was never really against gay marriage, he just needed to have viable positions to get elected.

This. I don’t know why people found Obama’s position on gay marriage so difficult to understand. It was simple. In 2008, he had to win a Democratic primary. This meant echoing the stances that would be popular with Democratic primary voters. In Obama’s case, he needed all of the black vote as well. Only 60% of Democrats in 2008 supported marriage equality, compared to 80% in 2020 ( https://news.gallup.com/poll/350486…

>I don’t know why people found Obama’s position on gay marriage so difficult to understand.

Because he could have just as easily STFU'd and said some mumbo jumbo without giving a real answer. As a career politician (and well spoken one at that) giving a non-answer that gives both sides hope he'll be on their side was perfectly within his capability.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#220

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

malwarebytess wrote: post #163
Dah00n wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protests are a legal part of the system as a blow-off valve to let average citizens get rid of their rage. It's there to keep the status quo. It makes no difference without force behind it. As long as the opposing view doesn't feel endangered it is working for them and against the average citizen. As soon as it makes a difference it is no longer protests but a rebellion, which most who will protest doesn't have the s…

And barely legal at that. Right to protest is curtailed bit by bit year by year. It isn't a protest if you have to apply for a permit and have to stay in some "free speech zone."

In some places in America it’s legal to kill protestors. (Florida IIRC recently passed a law granting immunity to people to run over protestors with their car.)
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