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Burnout Is Real

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Re: Burnout Is Real

#201

I don’t know how to frame this well and I apologize in advance. But I think this idea of “oh wow burnout is real I’m so woke” is a privileged person problem. I don’t mean that burnout is a first world problem, but that this “Burnout is real” is. I struggle to put my head in a place where I can be amazed that burnout is real and that I have to warn others of this “thing” as if it’s not part of millions of people’s liv…

I seriously wish I could never hear the word the "privilege" again. Its an extremely spiteful mechanism to tear people down.

No, privilege is very real. The problem is using it as a bludgeon to silence someone's complains or to induce guilt or shame.

Re: Burnout Is Real

#202
post #97

Personally, I find the biggest reason for burnout is lack of autonomy. The author seems to have found the same.

I feel like autonomy is getting really hard to find in tech. There's just only so many ways you can write a GET route. Then it will get shaped into what it "should" be via PR comments. It makes for good software development, but it just isn't very fun or fullfiling. I miss learning something new and having choice with how to do it, but that doesn't always make for a good product. Sure I can do side projects but I jus…

Companies with high engineering excellence tend to give their engineers lots of autonomy.

You know you're in one such company when your responsibility is no longer limited to writing good code, but at the table deciding what should be built, and what the future plan is for the company or the product area.

Re: Burnout Is Real

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you alternate gigs ? I found this to be a great fix (maybe transient though). Manual labour 4h, coding 4h. Aiming at drag free day.

I found it useful to start a private project, find something fancy and interesting to get lost in and spark the creative juices. In other words work less, play more.

Actually I've been doing a bit of exactly that... 1. I've been writing a Forth interpreter on the side for fun. 2. I'm learning how to distill liquor. :)

Re: Burnout Is Real

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not going to advocate that this is the answer for everyone, but what I thought was burnout for me - turned out I had severe anxiety, depression, and ADHD. I'm on medication now, going through therapy, and still at my current gig doing better than ever. So, what I want to say is that if you are concerned you are burnt out - it's very possible work is burning you out, but it's also possible to seek treatment before mak…

Can we please not devolve every discussion about natural human behavior into ‘you must have adhd, get meds’. It’s standard pressure and human centric fear of failure around business expectations where those around you may or not give a flying fuck about your efforts. Thus, the pressure feels unfulfilling and driven by fear. It’s not always rocket science.

I don't think this was the poster's attempt to "devolve" the discussion. Simply sharing an anecdote that he thought might prove worthy of consideration for those who are suffering burnout.

I also suffered burnout at a job, but I didn't realize it until I was receiving therapy related to my anxiety. I don't know anything about meds or ADHD since that isn't anything I have experience with, but I think it's worth doing some introspection on one's self to see if there are thoughts or tendencies that are also there underneath the burnout.

Re: Burnout Is Real

#205
post #12

Exercise has helped me immensely. It's one of the few times a day that I'm focusing on self-improvement. If I don't do that then I focus on everything else and eventually burn out.

At the time of this post, there are 3 occurrences of the word "exercise" in this HN post/thread and 2 are valid suggestions of exercising, such as yours, Snarfy! And I think you are spot on! I get that burnt out feeling when I don't exercise or move much, which COVID has increased (less social gatherings, going places). There is a fantastic book, Spark, written by John Ratey, M.D., who is/was psychiatrist who used to…

Oh neat, the video that played right after is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V81cO8xyMaI which is the other end of the research on students in Naperville, IL, that Dr. Ratey mentions. Very good, complimentary watch to the first video I posted.

Re: Burnout Is Real

#206

I don’t know how to frame this well and I apologize in advance. But I think this idea of “oh wow burnout is real I’m so woke” is a privileged person problem. I don’t mean that burnout is a first world problem, but that this “Burnout is real” is. I struggle to put my head in a place where I can be amazed that burnout is real and that I have to warn others of this “thing” as if it’s not part of millions of people’s liv…

I have worked in retail, dealt with some of the rudest people. Sometimes, I still get angry about it. But my job satisfaction was certainly higher back then. At the end of day, I was tired but I didn't had to think of work anymore. Sure I met some assholes, but I also met some great people, some are still my friends. Other jobs I had were tutoring, security guard, IT helpdesk. All these jobs had higher satisfaction a…

> Now my dev job never really ends, I am constantly thinking about work related problems even while playing with my kids.

I don't know your situation in detail, but I have caught myself feeling like this in the past and it was completely self-imposed. I want to believe that my work is adding value (even putting aside big-picture questions of whether it's valuable to the world overall, just providing immediate value to the business & clients can be rewarding), and since you have so much leverage as an engineer to impact the experience of thousands or millions of users with your code it's easy to let that feeling expand into an unhealthy amount of pressure to put on yourself.

I have found that stepping back and being explicit about my expectations for myself and my work has helped a lot. There are some things that are entirely out of my control, so I definitely shouldn't let myself get stressed about those. There are other things that could be within my control but don't fall within a reasonable set of constraints that I choose to set for myself. I don't expect myself to never make a mistake, or to work 80 hour weeks. This latter category is less black and white and I still struggle with it sometimes. I do want to be committed to my job, I do want to be seen as valuable, and work my way toward promotions, but you can still do that in tech in while still maintaining some work/life balance.

Being a founder for a few years also helped my outlook on this a lot. As a founder, or I imagine a CEO, this type of intense self imposed pressure is seemingly very necessary in order to succeed. As an employee, you see a much smaller reward if things go well, and you should allow yourself to feel a much smaller amount of pressure/stress when problems arise.

Re: Burnout Is Real

#207
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seriously wish I could never hear the word the "privilege" again. Its an extremely spiteful mechanism to tear people down.

“Your problems are not as bad as these other people’s problems so they are not really problems”. Lots to unpack, but that’s the statement every time someone mentioned someone else’s privilege.

I meant to say “man your problems are real, but they have been a problem for a big portion of the society for a very long time and they wish they could act on it, maybe be a bit more sensitive about it”

Re: Burnout Is Real

#208

I don’t know how to frame this well and I apologize in advance. But I think this idea of “oh wow burnout is real I’m so woke” is a privileged person problem. I don’t mean that burnout is a first world problem, but that this “Burnout is real” is. I struggle to put my head in a place where I can be amazed that burnout is real and that I have to warn others of this “thing” as if it’s not part of millions of people’s liv…

For some anecdata, I think a lot of it is that most of the tech crowd, myself included, was basically taught growing up that "burnout" didn't exist for non-physical labor.

My parents constantly refrained how I "wanted a good job indoors with air conditioning", with the rationale that I wouldn't have to worry about my body breaking down (hilarious after I experienced cubicle life prior to starting a regular workout routine). This was reinforced by that the large amount of extra-curriculars I was (mostly) pushed into during high school, under the assumption that I could just handle it on top of AP/honors schoolwork. "Taking a break" was something you did for 30 minutes, maybe an hour at most before getting back to whatever the task at hand was.

My "teenage rebellion" was fights with my parents over doing nothing but playing video games on Saturday after working the equivalent of 14 hour days Sunday-Friday, all in the name of the big college in the sky. The notion of "mental burnout" didn't even enter my lexicon until college, although I was almost certainly suffering from it for most of high school. I know a lot of my classmates had similar experiences.

On the professional front, a lot of managers and executives (though not all) also promote this "sleep is for the weak" mentality as an article of faith. Likewise I've heard multiple snide remarks from blue-collar workers who don't know any better about how "cushy" those tech jobs are, and how if they had one they'd totally just work 100 hour weeks because "how hard is it to sit at a computer all day?"

So there is a widespread notion out there, at least in the US, that intellectual labor isn't really laborious, and if you claim fatigue from it you're just weak. These posts are largely a (rightful IMO) rebellion against that notion. If everyone took your perspective then yeah, they'd be rather trite. Unfortunately it never ceases to amaze me the self-destructive things people tie their identities to, and then try to pull other people into the same habits just for the validation.

Re: Burnout Is Real

#209
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you mind sharing a bit more about that? I like how this rule sounds, but am wondering whether you live in a high-cost area or not. Having two incomes at the level of the fast-food industry seems somewhat limiting, but this depends on where you live and how frugal you are. In other comments I'm also noticing that having a mortgage is part of the need to stay in a high-paying job, so maybe renting can alleviate s…

Sure, I'm in WNY right now, planning to move to Knoxville or Memphis this year. Not super frugal in general, but I save about half my paycheck, wife invests most of hers. We have a house, two cars (only one of them is "nice"), and no kids. We own a house in the suburbs, bought it almost a year ago and have been fixing it up since. Renting is pound-for-pound far more expensive than owning. We couldn't find an apartmen…

> Renting is pound-for-pound far more expensive than owning

This may very well be true for your scenario, so I'm not addressing that. I just want to poke at the myth that owning is always cheaper than renting. The real answer is: it depends on a lot of things.

There are costs associated with achieving a purchase (and later, a sale), there are costs associated with paying rent for extra cash (ie the mortgage), there are property taxes, and there are both time and money costs in maintenance work (that is obligatory for owners, a savings if you are renting).

If you move more often than once every 5 years, the math probably works out for it being cheaper to rent than to own. Committing to 5+ years decreases your flexibility to do things like: take higher-paying work, let go of real maintenance needs, move out of a bad neighborhood, etc.

Re: Burnout Is Real

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreeing with some of the comments here: I feel like I'm stuck in my current high paying job; we have a mortgage, nice car, lots of "stuff". Through conversations with therapist and my spouse I've been slowly realizing how much this stuff owns me, rather than me owning stuff. I never have time to play with my synths or flight-sim setup or even photography anymore. The only time I'm truly relaxed is when we go somewhe…

This is definitely true for me. I went from a digital nomad lifestyle living abroad for over a decade, to moving back to North America and "settling down". In the last three years I've bought a house, fancy car, and accumulated a bunch of "stuff". By most people's standards, what I have accumulated is not that much, but to me it's a huge weight on my shoulders. Not only the physical items, but subscriptions to servic…

>and then zone out in front of Netflix, read reddit,

You're not allowing yourself to be bored. You can't do creative hobbies if you're just going on autopilot and spending your time doing the absolute lowest common denominator timesinks like Reddit and Netflix.

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