A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#261

Post by rmah » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:43 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #234

saxonww wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is that sex and gender are different though; gender _is_ a social construct. I think lack of agreement on this is a big part of the issue right now. Edit: as pointed out below, gender roles are something we've made up, but preferences and behavior themselves (which we're calling gender) are not. Still separate from sex.

But "gender" is a made-up concept with no clear (non-self-referential) definition, seemingly made up specifically to cause confusion and conflict. It's as if there were two concepts, "race" and "grace", and you could be "biologically" white but "identify" as black, or "height" and "gheight", and you could be "factually" 180cm tall but "identify" as 165cm.

Um... this actually makes no sense to me. Could you clarify or elaborate?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#262

Post by _qbjt » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:43 PM UTC

f38zf5vdt wrote: post #105

oofabz wrote: post #98

I don't think gender ideology is an appropriate topic for HN. There is little to be gained and much to be lost from discussing it here. Little to be gained because it has nothing to do with software development, and because gender issues are thoroughly covered elsewhere. Much to be lost because gender issues are so divisive that we risk alienating members of our community.

For a while I'd really enjoyed HackerNews for the lack of politics. It was great not to hear about Trump during the Trump presidency, but since then and COVID times I find more and more highly politicized editorials being propelled to the top of the front page. I'm pretty close to no longer visiting here.

Yeah, I just tend to avoid political posts and threads altogether. Speaking as a trans woman who doesn’t use Twitter or most other social media, it can feel like I don’t have a voice and I’m just seeing this debate play out. But in a way I’m fine with that. Online it’s like people either hate me because I’m trans or hate others on my behalf because they’re not trans-inclusive enough. My lived experience is nowhere near as extreme. To most of my friends, family and coworkers, I’m the only trans person they know and the topic of gender rarely comes up. Aside from a few friends and family who disowned me early in my transition, I’ve found that people are generally respectful. Strangers can sometimes be mean / scary / creepy and dating isn’t easy (most guys aren’t into trans girls or if they are it’s usually a fetish thing) - so I just try to avoid situations where I’m unsafe or feeling bad vibes.

I know that was a bit off-topic but I guess what I’m trying to say is, it’s okay to create distance between you and the things that bring you down. I’ve found so much interesting content through Hacker News and it would be a shame to throw that away just because the politics here don’t always align with my own.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#263

Post by LatteLazy » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:43 PM UTC

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #216

LatteLazy wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sympathise. Sadly society seems to be moving the other way recently: my gym and pool both have significant women's only hours and classes. My previous employer had women only sessions with the ceo to promote more women faster. There was a brief moment a few years ago when the government here (limey Britian) said people would be allowed to pick their gender without involving doctors/bureaucrats. I liked the idea, it…

> Long queue for the ladies? Identify as a man for 5 minutes! Accidently go to the gym at 7 on a Wednesday? Be a girl for 90 minutes so you can work out! I like this. I’ve already identified to my employer that I’m partially Black even though, to the best of my knowledge, I’m not. They can’t deny it and it only benefits them (they can increase their ratios of minority employers which is public data). I can choose to…

I have a terrible problem: I actually am gay.

But I hate identifying so at work because I don't want to be "the gay guy". I don't want to be promoted early to boost the company stats. I don't want people thinking I was promoted for that reason either.

I don't know why anyone would want those things. I'm gay, but I'm here because I'm good at my job and I work hard. I'm taking your bonus, but not using my genitals, using my impressive mathematical skills!

I am very happy to just be dumped into the same pool as everyone else (metaphorically and for swimming)

/rant

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#264

Post by mike00632 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

jotux wrote: post #198

mike00632 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel the same way about nicknames? If you call someone by a nickname that they don't like and they let you know they prefer their own name then do you consider it too onerous to defer to them about it?

Wouldn't this be the opposite of that scenario? As in, someone has a given name at birth but they prefer a nickname and some people find using the nickname too onerous and use their given name instead?

Yeah, my legal name is "Michael". If I asked you to call me "Mike" is that really such a pain for you?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#265

Post by tomp » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

MyHypatia wrote: post #89

throwaway284534 wrote: post #36

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…

Why would trans women have any greater fear of rape (by men) than (smaller, weaker) men have?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#266

Post by cheeseomlit » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

saxonww wrote: post #196

cheeseomlit wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really an apt comparison since there's nothing about a nickname that defies observable reality, a name is a social construct to begin with. Sex however is a biological construct in which the characteristics are directly and quantitatively observable.

The idea is that sex and gender are different though; gender _is_ a social construct. I think lack of agreement on this is a big part of the issue right now. Edit: as pointed out below, gender roles are something we've made up, but preferences and behavior themselves (which we're calling gender) are not. Still separate from sex.

This distinction doesn't sit right with me though. What is Gender really, in the modern definition (since it seems to have changed over the years)? From what I gather it's a way for people to tell others that one of their physical characteristics (Sex) does not match their mental state (Gender). To me this doesn't really seem like a positive thing, it comes off like a potentially harmful delusion from someone who can't come to terms with their own biology.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a feminine man or a masculine woman, people can behave however they wish regardless of biology. But the most feminine man on the planet is still a man and saying so shouldn't turn you into a pariah, it's true after all.

Imagine we came up with 'Gender' like terms for other physical characteristics, it seems to me like the logic quickly breaks down when you think about it-

Gender is to Sex as ____ is to Race as ____ is to Age as ____ is to Height as ____ is to Weight as ____ is to Eye Color etc.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#267

Post by dang » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:45 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #223

oofabz wrote: post #98

I don't think gender ideology is an appropriate topic for HN. There is little to be gained and much to be lost from discussing it here. Little to be gained because it has nothing to do with software development, and because gender issues are thoroughly covered elsewhere. Much to be lost because gender issues are so divisive that we risk alienating members of our community.

Certainly I am finding it very difficult to be heard. As a member of the trans community I’ve tried to be kind and helpful in my comments in this thread but I’m getting downvoted to hell. I just really want people in this thread to learn about emotional labor and to consider what they’re asking of marginalized people when they want to “discuss” the validity of their needs.

Yes, that's not good. I will take a closer look. Thanks for remaining kind and helpful, even when it's not easy.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#268

Post by drenvuk » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:45 PM UTC

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects?

The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite...

In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I could find comes counts the number of people who selected "other" when choosing a sex at 0.4% or 224,632 people out of 64,596,800.

>https://practicalandrogyny.com/2014/12/16/how-many-people-in...

Personally I don't think this is very important compared to other topics. There are more blind people than trans people. There are more people with Alzheimer's than trans people. There are more people in the US who have lost a limb than trans people.

I don't mean to downplay what is happening because it is happening but do you not think the amount of outrage this topic generates surpasses the level of impact we can have assuming we fix it? It just feels like we're being distracted.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#269

Post by Causality1 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:45 PM UTC

mike00632 wrote: post #124

fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

Do you feel the same way about nicknames? If you call someone by a nickname that they don't like and they let you know they prefer their own name then do you consider it too onerous to defer to them about it?

I have that exact situation at work, twice in fact. One woman's nickname is Pookie. Some people are uncomfortable with using that term and they use her legal name. It doesn't bother her. Another man insisted on people calling him "PawPaw". Nobody was comfortable with that, especially the women he borderline harassed every day. He was fired for stealing food out of the break room before the name situation came to a head.

You don't have the right to compel speech in other people in any way. You don't even have the right to make people call you by your birth name. Some jurisdictions like NYC have laws against malicious miss-naming by an employer or landlord, but even that only applies if they essentially make it a harassment campaign.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#270

Post by fiftyfifty » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:45 PM UTC

oofabz wrote: post #98

I don't think gender ideology is an appropriate topic for HN. There is little to be gained and much to be lost from discussing it here. Little to be gained because it has nothing to do with software development, and because gender issues are thoroughly covered elsewhere. Much to be lost because gender issues are so divisive that we risk alienating members of our community.

I have 3 kids in college right now, actually one just graduated with a computer science degree. All 3 of my kids have talked about how much gender ideology has creeped into the classroom at the college level, to the point where virtually every class including computer science, engineering and science courses, has to start off with addressing pronoun preferences. It is a political hot-topic for sure, and those often go horribly in online forums but to say that it's not related to software development and startup culture is a bit disingenuous. It is effecting higher education in a big way, and it is creeping into corporate culture.