A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#151

Post by have2throwaway » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:11 PM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #53

underseacables wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transgender is a psychiatric disorder with potential medical treatment. The problem is that it’s also a lifeline for people who are seeking an identity, and they become hyper sensitive to any questioning of something that, again, is all in their heads.

Being transgender is as "curable" as homosexuality.

For many years I experienced gender dysphoric feelings. Did that make me "transgender"? I used to believe that I was, even though deeply closeted.

I didn't seek help. I didn't transition. I wanted to seek help but was too scared. What happened?

Well, after some years, the gender dysphoric feelings went away.

That happens sometimes – gender dysphoric feelings can spontaneously remit, go away by themselves. I don't have them any more.

I know from the literature I am not unique, see e.g. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10929795/

If it can happen spontaneously, is it impossible that sometimes therapy might speed that spontaneous process along? Would that be a "cure"?

I have struggled with obsessive behaviour ever since I was a child. I probably have undiagnosed ASD (I have many other traits of ASD than just obsessions). I'm actually on a waiting-list to see a psychiatrist for an ASD assessment. Some of my obsessions are more ASD-like (pleasurable rather than anxious), others more OCD-like (anxiety-driven), so sometimes I wonder if I might have OCD too. I'll let my psychiatrist work that one out, when I see him. But what I realise now is that my gender dysphoric feelings were just another one of these obsessions. And like most of my obsessions, with time they fade and get replaced with new ones. If I had this self-understanding 15, 20 years ago, I think my gender dysphoric feelings might have remitted faster.

If I'd sought help back then, would they have helped me gain that self-understanding of my own obsessiveness? Or would they have encouraged me towards transition? I'm glad I never transitioned, I think I'd be in a far worse place now if I had. But I worry with this idea of "affirmative care", people like me may be encouraged in that direction whether it is the right thing for them or not.

What about your comparison with homosexuality? Does homosexuality ever "spontaneously remit" in the same way that gender dysphoric feelings sometimes do? I honestly have no idea. My feelings about my birth gender (male) have waxed and waned, but a constant for me has been attraction to women with never more than fleeting feelings for men; given that, the equivalent question for homosexuality is beyond my personal experience.

(Sorry for the throwaway. I hope one can understand why. I wish I had the courage to talk about this stuff under my real name. I hope that one of these days I will, but not today.)

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#152

Post by Latty » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #87

JanneVee wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don't operate our universities on the heckler's veto. I've seen a few videos from various Universities where invited speakers are shouted down because of supposed wrong views. But then it isn't the heckler's veto if their views are wrong or what?

What's weird is that not long ago is popular to say "I disagree with everything you have to say, but I'd die for your right to say it". It's amazing how times have changed from that shared belief. The videos you haven't seen are the ones that were never made because the wrong-view person was stopped from even giving their scheduled talk via "de-platforming".

Someone having a right to say something doesn't mean they are entitled to every platform to broadcast it.

Not everyone can go and speak at a University, there is not enough time and space for that to be viable, just as not everyone can demand to be broadcast on TV.

If you can't get enough support at a University to speak, the public square and the soapbox are always at your disposal. The government can't arrest you. That is the freedom of expression that is protected.

You are talking about enforced speech, where private individuals must listen to a speaker, and/or use their platform to amplify the speaker's words. It is a violation of their freedom of expression to tell them they cannot refuse or protest against what someone else wishes to say.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#153

Post by bob_roberts » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

twirligigue wrote: post #108

There seems to be a new background assumption that one's identity can be chosen, whereas I think in reality it's inherited.

You shouldn't assume that nonbinary and trans people "choose" their identity. They might choose to acknowledge it, to themselves or to others. At least, that's been my experience. It was a realization, not a choice.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#154

Post by theknocker » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

The word TERF is not a fucking "slur."

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#155

Post by throwaway675309 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

MyHypatia wrote: post #89

throwaway284534 wrote: post #36

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…

Additionally if you only have to vocally identify as a woman without having to take any further steps (Hormone replacement, srs, etc) this seems exploitable.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#156

Post by cheeseomlit » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

mike00632 wrote: post #124

fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

Do you feel the same way about nicknames? If you call someone by a nickname that they don't like and they let you know they prefer their own name then do you consider it too onerous to defer to them about it?

Not really an apt comparison since there's nothing about a nickname that defies observable reality, a name is a social construct to begin with. Sex however is a biological construct in which the characteristics are directly and quantitatively observable.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#157

Post by afpx » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

ixacto wrote: post #27

Freedom of expression/free speech doesn’t mean freedom not to be offended or that you have to agree with the views. If we do not support even the most offensive speech then we risk a very slippery slope leading to censorship and 1984.

Should teachers be allowed to say anything they want to students, regardless if it offends them? If a student asks a teacher not to call them something that offends them, is the teacher required to stop using the slur?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#158

Post by brandmeyer » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

MyHypatia wrote: post #89

throwaway284534 wrote: post #36

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…

Alternatively, this could be an opportunity to address sexual assault in prisons more broadly. No inmate, no matter how heinous their crimes, should be subjected to sexual assault.

The prevalence and sexual assault in prisons is an example of a normalization of deviance that should be opposed, instead of tolerated.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#159

Post by bob_roberts » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

tetranomiga wrote: post #14

Gender politics is a cancer on the left, even though I agree with it, it takes up so much time and energy away from things that would benefit everybody including trans people, like universal healthcare, better employee protection laws and better, more available education. Such a small percentage of the population has been the center point of so much discussion and debate, and for what benefit? All I see it doing is g…

> Such a small percentage of the population

That's not a good argument for the left to stop defending trans people's rights.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#160

Post by SketchySeaBeast » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

MyHypatia wrote: post #89

throwaway284534 wrote: post #36

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…

> house intact trans-women

Why would a rapist stop wanting to rape regardless of the state of their genitals? Is sexual violation with a penis so much more horrific than other violations it deserves special consideration?