A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#211

Post by tabtab » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #150

The same has occurred in regards to race. For decades the ideological left preached, quite aggressively and consistently, that we must move to a post racial society, that race should not matter. This was the clear majority belief on the left as recently as the beginning of Obama's first term. My entire childhood was filled with that preached gospel: a person's character is what matters, do not pay attention to their…

I suspect you are confusing using characteristics to correct for existing bias versus using characteristics for discrimination itself. Specific scenarios may help us explore this better.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#212

Post by tshaddox » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

I don't see any irony there, because there is a huge difference between accepting that certain personal characteristics shouldn't matter, and accepting that people nevertheless do face a wide range of problems because of their personal characteristics that shouldn't matter. The former has experienced some progress as you mention (at least for what's considered acceptable to voice publicly), but the latter appears to be highly controversial.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#213

Post by noobermin » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

>“shut the fuck up, TERF” (trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur)

I stopped reading there. The protestors are framed as crazy and insane but TERF is a slur, there's no "opinion" marker on the article, it's pretty clear the author is coming from a biased perspective although framed as objective. When they can't even start the article of a controversial topic with even a weak attempt at objectivity I know enough not to indulge.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#214

Post by zehnfischer » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

cheeseomlit wrote: post #156

mike00632 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel the same way about nicknames? If you call someone by a nickname that they don't like and they let you know they prefer their own name then do you consider it too onerous to defer to them about it?

Not really an apt comparison since there's nothing about a nickname that defies observable reality, a name is a social construct to begin with. Sex however is a biological construct in which the characteristics are directly and quantitatively observable.

Well, while it could be argued that sex is biological given, it is surely that our society overstates the difference between men and women - plus our current society still aims to standardises / normalizes all other sexes. The social meaning of being male, of being female etc. is still socially constructed and therefore which sex you are born into has measurable impact on your life, your chances in terms of career.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#215

Post by exporectomy » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #145

What a tough problem to solve. My current thought on the gender identity issue is that society should default to the absolute minimum amount of categorizing people by their gender. What you identify as only matters to the extent that we divide people. Nobody would care if you used the women's bathroom, if such a thing did not exist. And when it is absolutely necessary for a distinction to exist, then we can spend the…

I agree except that I don't think we understand which ways of dividing ourselves are really biologically (including psychologically) important and which are just cultural and can be changed with the right environment. Culture often encodes biological needs that we don't really understand.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#216

Post by TedDoesntTalk » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #204

rootusrootus wrote: post #145

What a tough problem to solve. My current thought on the gender identity issue is that society should default to the absolute minimum amount of categorizing people by their gender. What you identify as only matters to the extent that we divide people. Nobody would care if you used the women's bathroom, if such a thing did not exist. And when it is absolutely necessary for a distinction to exist, then we can spend the…

I sympathise. Sadly society seems to be moving the other way recently: my gym and pool both have significant women's only hours and classes. My previous employer had women only sessions with the ceo to promote more women faster. There was a brief moment a few years ago when the government here (limey Britian) said people would be allowed to pick their gender without involving doctors/bureaucrats. I liked the idea, it…

> Long queue for the ladies? Identify as a man for 5 minutes! Accidently go to the gym at 7 on a Wednesday? Be a girl for 90 minutes so you can work out!

I like this.

I’ve already identified to my employer that I’m partially Black even though, to the best of my knowledge, I’m not.

They can’t deny it and it only benefits them (they can increase their ratios of minority employers which is public data).

I can choose to identify as black if I like.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#217

Post by avereveard » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

gorgoiler wrote: post #88

In a shared space, should the people that share that space have the right to exclude someone if it makes the majority feel unsafe? What about if it makes just one of them feel unsafe? If one person says they feel unsafe, should they be asked to leave instead of the newcomer, with whom the majority are ambivalent? Basically what I’m getting at is what’s the algebra / game theory of creating safe spaces based on tolera…

Ostracizing people based solely on one own feeling sits squarely against the whole concept of presumption of innocence, it's the apotheosis of prejudices against coexistence.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#218

Post by plank_time » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

I think we should accommodate trans people as much as we can, up to and including letting them be legally be considered the sex of their belief as long as they have transitioned to some degree, by taking hormones or surgery.

However, I disagree with getting rid of biological sex. It’s absurd. Even down to the genetic level there is a biological definition of male and female and to say there isn’t is anti-science. We shouldn’t destroy science over this.

Because of that I also don’t believe that trans women should be allowed to compete in competitive sports especially those that have dedicated their lives towards it. To put it in perspective, Serena Williams, one of the greatest if not the greatest tennis athlete of all time. She and Venus Williams were destroyed in her prime by the 200th ranked tennis player. The male tennis player felt like they were equivalent to a 600th ranked male player. The point being, you can’t make up for some genetic differences between men and women.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#219

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:32 PM UTC

HideousKojima wrote: post #205

rootusrootus wrote: post #145

What a tough problem to solve. My current thought on the gender identity issue is that society should default to the absolute minimum amount of categorizing people by their gender. What you identify as only matters to the extent that we divide people. Nobody would care if you used the women's bathroom, if such a thing did not exist. And when it is absolutely necessary for a distinction to exist, then we can spend the…

>"I feel unsafe if there is a man in the bathroom." Why? Because men (biological males if we're being pedantic) are statistically overwhelmingly more likely to commit rape and other forms of sexual assault (and other violent crimes) and to be horny creepy perverted sex pests in general. Add to that the fact that men are much more physically strong than women (a ~5th percentile male is about as strong as a ~95th perce…

[deleted]

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#220

Post by f38zf5vdt » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:32 PM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #181

fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

This was ironically one of the things that was hardest about coming out as gay, for me. Nobody ever treated me the same way again. I was either uncomfortably praised or silently judged, with practically no in-between. Suffice to say, my sexuality is on a need-to-know basis, now.

As a visible minority because of my race, I wish I had the option. I just try to avoid meat space.