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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

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Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#201

Post by tabtab »

lovegoblin wrote: post #123
tabtab wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CIS (as born) women may also have (traditional) male-like traits. If you separate people by traits in prison, then why separate based on trans-ness alone? For example, large women are more likely to rape small women in prison simply because they can. If you separate based on such risks, then separate large women from small women also; why focus on just trans? Many prisons already separate by ethnic group simply to ke…

> "Regular" women The word you're looking for is "cis".

I corrected it; however, keep in mind many readers don't know that means.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#202

Post by kwanbix »

fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

100% Agree. At least in my home country, this is mostly fueled by the left (I consider myself center).

Lots of them just "work" of doing nothing but protesting, so once they get something they wanted, they have to move to the next thing.

For example, they start by making changes to the language so, instead of being "los" (male) or "las" (female) they started to say "les" (does not exists in spanish) as they say it is more inclusive (nor male nor female).

But it is not that they say "los", "las", and "les", they want you to say "les". So first it was an "innocent" thing, and now they are trying to pass laws and indoctrinate everyone, included kids from any age, 6 years old or less.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#203

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

IncRnd wrote: post #176
rootusrootus wrote: post #145

What a tough problem to solve. My current thought on the gender identity issue is that society should default to the absolute minimum amount of categorizing people by their gender. What you identify as only matters to the extent that we divide people. Nobody would care if you used the women's bathroom, if such a thing did not exist. And when it is absolutely necessary for a distinction to exist, then we can spend the…

> This would mean throwing out a lot of the more epheremeral complaints "I feel unsafe if there is a man in the bathroom." Why? Let's fix that part, then. Because there are going to be scary women too. Do you recognize that there are actual reasons that a woman might not want to go into a bathroom with 5 men in it?

I recognize that. But isn’t that also a form of discrimination? The suggestion is that all men are capable of being perverts, using their camera phones inappropriately, bathroom harassment, etc.

To build gender-specific bathrooms because of that generalization of men is hypocritical of the entire gender discrimination movement. Reverse discrimination.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#204

Post by LatteLazy »

rootusrootus wrote: post #145

What a tough problem to solve. My current thought on the gender identity issue is that society should default to the absolute minimum amount of categorizing people by their gender. What you identify as only matters to the extent that we divide people. Nobody would care if you used the women's bathroom, if such a thing did not exist. And when it is absolutely necessary for a distinction to exist, then we can spend the…

I sympathise. Sadly society seems to be moving the other way recently: my gym and pool both have significant women's only hours and classes. My previous employer had women only sessions with the ceo to promote more women faster.

There was a brief moment a few years ago when the government here (limey Britian) said people would be allowed to pick their gender without involving doctors/bureaucrats. I liked the idea, it's equality on steroids. Long queue for the ladies? Identify as a man for 5 minutes! Accidently go to the gym at 7 on a Wednesday? Be a girl for 90 minutes so you can work out!

Link for when the policy was dropped

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/22/uk-governmen...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#205

Post by HideousKojima »

rootusrootus wrote: post #145

What a tough problem to solve. My current thought on the gender identity issue is that society should default to the absolute minimum amount of categorizing people by their gender. What you identify as only matters to the extent that we divide people. Nobody would care if you used the women's bathroom, if such a thing did not exist. And when it is absolutely necessary for a distinction to exist, then we can spend the…

>"I feel unsafe if there is a man in the bathroom." Why?

Because men (biological males if we're being pedantic) are statistically overwhelmingly more likely to commit rape and other forms of sexual assault (and other violent crimes) and to be horny creepy perverted sex pests in general. Add to that the fact that men are much more physically strong than women (a ~5th percentile male is about as strong as a ~95th percentile female) and the options a woman has to defend themselves against such a creep are severely limited.

But if you insist on creating a New Soviet Woman that isn't afraid of men, be my guest. Just do it far away from me in a different country, please.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#206

Post by BitwiseFool »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #71
recursivedoubts wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is to set up rhetorical either-or's and then browbeat the majority into silence: Either you support unlimited immigration or you are a racist. Either you are 100% on board with the entire vaccine schedule or you are an anti-vaxxer. Either you say that Covid was a natural occurrence or you are a conspiracy theorist (and probably a racist too). And so on. Say what one will, but it's effective. I think one reas…

> Say what one will, but it's effective. Yes and no. Yes, it's effective at shutting people up. No, it's not very effective at convincing people that you're right. It's more effective at convincing people that you're completely unreasonable, and that it's better to just not talk to you at all.

"Yes, it's effective at shutting people up. No, it's not very effective at convincing people that you're right."

I see things differently, through the lens of power and influence. How much power does the opposition have if it's been effectively silenced? Members of the other side certainly aren't convinced of your cause, but what difference does it make? You've already gotten them to submit.

As time goes on the younger people will pretty much only hear from the intolerant folks because the people who were silenced can't propagate their worldview effectively.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#207

Post by freemint »

JohnBooty wrote: post #171
tetranomiga wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno if I'd agree that it's a small vocal minority, zero-tolerance to anybody questioning the current dogma is seen everywhere where trans acceptance is a focus. Ten years ago I was told, by trans people, that there are physical differences between trans and cis brains. Say that today, and you get kicked out of LGBT spaces for being a transmedicalist or truscum. I have no idea whether it's true or not because you…

I do not know anything about the subject of the linked article, nor her views. Did not venture past the pay/registration wall. I have no opinion about her. zero-tolerance to anybody questioning the current dogma is seen everywhere Generally, of course dogma should be questioned. However, academic freedom does not mean that universities must provide a platform to literally anybody that wants one. Their resources are f…

I am not sure if your definition of academic freedom applies equally all over the world. I understand Humboldts definition of "Freiheit von Forschung und Lehre" an university is obligated to support you once you have been taken on and to fire people because of their research alone would violate it.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#208

Post by celeritascelery »

gorgoiler wrote: post #88

In a shared space, should the people that share that space have the right to exclude someone if it makes the majority feel unsafe? What about if it makes just one of them feel unsafe? If one person says they feel unsafe, should they be asked to leave instead of the newcomer, with whom the majority are ambivalent? Basically what I’m getting at is what’s the algebra / game theory of creating safe spaces based on tolera…

When ever I see someone talk about “safe space”, I ask myself, “safe space for which ideas?” The things that are safe to discuss are different at thanksgiving dinner, a college designated safe-space, a therapist’s office, or a church meeting. There is no such thing as a universal “safe space” for all ideas.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#209

Post by TimTheTinker »

colechristensen wrote: post #192
fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

You can notice this in a few fields of popular ideologies these days, that is overcorrecting for a problem to the point of becoming exactly the thing one was originally fighting against. I am of the somewhat progressive-unpopular opinion that some people have an unhealthy interest in how they label themselves and how others perceive them, and in the attempts to be supportive the popular opinion is doing more harm tha…

The problem is that people entangle their sense of identity with their opinions. (I think PG had an essay on HN recently that talked about this - he called out religious and political opinions in particular.)

So their opinions aren't up for discussion. If you disagree with them, they feel offended and personally attacked.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#210

Post by [deleted] »

adventured wrote: post #150

The same has occurred in regards to race. For decades the ideological left preached, quite aggressively and consistently, that we must move to a post racial society, that race should not matter. This was the clear majority belief on the left as recently as the beginning of Obama's first term. My entire childhood was filled with that preached gospel: a person's character is what matters, do not pay attention to their…

[deleted]
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