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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

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Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#241

Post by long_time_gone »

ENIanDEM wrote: post #117
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems to me a very uncharitable take on the TERF position. For example, approximately 1/4 of women have been raped at some time. It's not very hard to see that such women could have a problem with someone who's biologically male in the women's room - a serious, traumatic problem. You can say that and still be sympathetic to the plight of trans people.

Sorry, I don't buy this concept that hordes of (or any, for that matter) predatory trans women are queuing up for the chance to prowl round changing rooms. Do you, really? Say you're right. What stops them sneaking in right now? It's not like there are mandatory ID checks at the entrance.

This is what I don't understand. How many examples are there of the horrible ills these bathroom bills will "solve"? Trans people exist today, they use bathrooms, where are the problems?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#242

Post by jolux »

MyHypatia wrote: post #172
notahacker wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fear of rape or pressurised sex amongst prisoners is perfectly real, but if a tiny minority of transpeople are a distant third in terms of sexual threat to female prisoners behind male warders and natal females and a campaign organization proposes rehousing transpeople (all 125 of them) in different prisons as their solution to prison rape over better safeguarding practises or single occupant cells which might offer…

I think housing intact trans-women in single occupant cells in women's prisons is a reasonable middle ground. The trans-women are in a space that affirms their gender identity, but it does not require cis-women to share a cell with someone who can rape and impregnate them.

Cis women rape other cis women too, and not all trans women can impregnate people.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#243

Post by thereddaikon »

ENIanDEM wrote: post #117
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems to me a very uncharitable take on the TERF position. For example, approximately 1/4 of women have been raped at some time. It's not very hard to see that such women could have a problem with someone who's biologically male in the women's room - a serious, traumatic problem. You can say that and still be sympathetic to the plight of trans people.

Sorry, I don't buy this concept that hordes of (or any, for that matter) predatory trans women are queuing up for the chance to prowl round changing rooms. Do you, really? Say you're right. What stops them sneaking in right now? It's not like there are mandatory ID checks at the entrance.

That's a strawman.

Without proof to the contrary the assumption should be that the trans population has a similar proportion of rapists as any other does.

Since its been well established that essentially all rape no matter who is raping who goes under reported it is completely rational for women to be just as fearful as they would with any other stranger.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#244

Post by notahacker »

bachmeier wrote: post #163
foolinaround wrote: post #38

while this article focusses on the gender ideology issues, IMHO the censorship in universites is on a wider range of issues, with the common denominator being the viewpoints espoused in far-left circles (not passing judgement here on whether they are right or wrong) Enforced group-think is going to be the death of these universities.

> Enforced group-think is going to be the death of these universities. I've been working at universities for a couple decades now and have never experienced "enforced group-think".

Funnily enough, I spoke earlier this week with an academic whose concern about recent developments was that legal/policy papers he was writing for government departments were much more likely to be unpublished or partially redacted than in previous decades, for reasons which had nothing to do with culture warring.

Easy to see why governments would prefer the public believe the real threat to university research was a handful of students picketing the intentionally provocative...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#245

Post by shkkmo »

maybeOneDay wrote: post #183
throwaway894345 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, I like that we discuss controversial topics here if only because it's the only online forum I'm aware of where this stuff can be discussed with any degree of productive dialogue or without a constant barrage of bad faith (which isn't to say there aren't bad faith commenters here, but the signal/noise ratio is much higher here).

In my experience browsing HN almost daily, over the last year it has become something of an echo chamber for "anti woke" lines of thinking. I've seen little to no healthy discussion on the topic - by which I mean productive disagreement. It's usually just a top comment decrying twitter/etc and then a pile on of agreement.

I would disagree. I think that there is a strong pro free speech group, most of who are also literally woke, but who also want to keep the overton window broad.

There are, of course, some pretty reptitive comment threads, but you can collapse those and generally find more interesting discussion somewhere (don't forget there are often multiple pages of comments.)

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#246

Post by mike00632 »

cheeseomlit wrote: post #156
mike00632 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel the same way about nicknames? If you call someone by a nickname that they don't like and they let you know they prefer their own name then do you consider it too onerous to defer to them about it?

Not really an apt comparison since there's nothing about a nickname that defies observable reality, a name is a social construct to begin with. Sex however is a biological construct in which the characteristics are directly and quantitatively observable.

Sure there is. My legal name and the name I sign on documents is "Michael" but I could have a preference for "Mike". Are you really going to deny that to me because there is an "observable reality" that is different from my preference?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#247

Post by werber »

vmception wrote: post #200
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> house intact trans-women Why would a rapist stop wanting to rape regardless of the state of their genitals? Is sexual violation with a penis so much more horrific than other violations it deserves special consideration?

Its also about the possibility of being impregnated Just personalize the idea, your sister or female significant other was thrown in jail, and then housed with a male who is a trans woman who has sex with her with or without her consent and creates an ongoing consequence that is impossible if trans women were not there That would be the expectation you would start with to form a conclusion Sex in male prisons does no…

Some trans men get pregnant and some trans men commit crimes. It’s interesting that conversations on gender identity tend to zero in on trans women

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#248

Post by mfarris »

mkr-hn wrote: post #54
anoncake wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's in no position to complain, is she?

A huge part of advocating for the right to self-identify is about respecting identity whether you like/respect someone or not. She didn't get her contract renewed because she made it clear she was going to be an asshole to coworkers on this exact dimension. Correct gendering/identification is not something you have to earn. I still write J.K. Rowling's name out like that because it's how she goes by even though I wou…

J.K. Rowling has stated her love of transpeople and her wish to see them be fully accepted members of society. She has differences of opinion about the best political approach to achieving equality.

Because she makes a rational, temperate argument that you do not like, you "wouldn't waste spit on her in hell."

Which of you is the more hateful?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#249

Post by beervirus »

mike00632 wrote: post #236
beervirus wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A slur is any term that’s “a disparaging remark or slight” according to dictionary.com. It’s hard to argue they’re not using the term TERF as disparaging.

The problem is that you are saying "TERF" is a slur by using a wide definition but then using the narrow definition to claim it's a travisty to be called a "TERF". The point is that "TERF" is not on the same level as the n-word, f-word or the t-word which you are likening it to when you insist it's a slur. It's simply not harmful to call someone a "TERF" like it is to use slurs against the groups that TERFs are margi…

You’re putting words in my mouth. All I’m saying is that it was silly to insist that it isn’t a slur.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#250

Post by MontyCarloHall »

saxonww wrote: post #196
cheeseomlit wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really an apt comparison since there's nothing about a nickname that defies observable reality, a name is a social construct to begin with. Sex however is a biological construct in which the characteristics are directly and quantitatively observable.

The idea is that sex and gender are different though; gender _is_ a social construct. I think lack of agreement on this is a big part of the issue right now. Edit: as pointed out below, gender roles are something we've made up, but preferences and behavior themselves (which we're calling gender) are not. Still separate from sex.

Certain gender roles are social constructs, but gender as a whole cannot be a social construct because gender dysphoria exists. A transgender person’s gender identity is hardwired (and opposite of their genetic sex and outward sex characteristics), which is strong evidence that gender is an innate physiological characteristic. It’s likely something neurological, since trans people’s obvious physiological characteristics (e.g. hormone levels and anatomy) are consistent with their genetic sex.

(This is why trans-exclusionary feminists exist, because the existence of trans people nullifies their belief that gender is 100% a social construct.)

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