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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

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Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#51

Post by threatofrain »

Moodles wrote: post #46
threatofrain wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why would you discuss someone's medical suffering by leading with a topic on trans elite sports, which focuses on an extreme niche and elite phenomena?

Because I am making the point that even mentioning something as extreme as that still gets me lambasted with abuse. So if we can't even discuss that civilly, how on Earth are we meant to discuss more nuanced issues?

So you are saying you choose to lead with elite trans sports, a niche phenomena of a niche phenomena, in order to demonstrate that you will be lambasted with abuse?

And that is how you choose to lead with your speech?

And you are saying if we can't discuss elite trans sports with nuance with civility, then how can we discuss an even more nuanced topic than trans elite sports?

So did you want to discuss trans elite sports or were you trying to demonstrate that people cannot handle a conversation with greater nuance? Or both at the same time?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#52

Post by anoncake »

mkr-hn wrote: post #47
anoncake wrote: post #44

"Gender critical" people claim that someone's sex cannot be changed, not even using surgery and hormones. So what is sex then? Obviously not one's hormones as those can be replaced just fine. That leaves chromosomes, primary and secondary characteristics. They also claim that gender is more important than sex. When they, for example, address someone as "Dear Mr. Smith", they must be referring to their sex then. Which…

Maya Forstater might be a trash goblin and disgrace to humanity, but she's still a she last I heard.

She's in no position to complain, is she?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#53

Post by anoncake »

underseacables wrote: post #45
zozbot234 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes the either-or's are not just either-or's, they're catch 22's. Trans people are suffering from gender dysphoria and denying that is transphobic, but if you say trans people are suffering from gender dysphoria you're a transmedicalist truscum. Checkmate atheists!

Transgender is a psychiatric disorder with potential medical treatment. The problem is that it’s also a lifeline for people who are seeking an identity, and they become hyper sensitive to any questioning of something that, again, is all in their heads.

Being transgender is as "curable" as homosexuality.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#54

Post by mkr-hn »

anoncake wrote: post #52
mkr-hn wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maya Forstater might be a trash goblin and disgrace to humanity, but she's still a she last I heard.

She's in no position to complain, is she?

A huge part of advocating for the right to self-identify is about respecting identity whether you like/respect someone or not. She didn't get her contract renewed because she made it clear she was going to be an asshole to coworkers on this exact dimension.

Correct gendering/identification is not something you have to earn. I still write J.K. Rowling's name out like that because it's how she goes by even though I wouldn't waste spit on her in hell.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#55

Post by Moodles »

threatofrain wrote: post #51
Moodles wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I am making the point that even mentioning something as extreme as that still gets me lambasted with abuse. So if we can't even discuss that civilly, how on Earth are we meant to discuss more nuanced issues?

So you are saying you choose to lead with elite trans sports, a niche phenomena of a niche phenomena, in order to demonstrate that you will be lambasted with abuse? And that is how you choose to lead with your speech? And you are saying if we can't discuss elite trans sports with nuance with civility, then how can we discuss an even more nuanced topic than trans elite sports? So did you want to discuss trans elite sp…

> And you are saying if we can't discuss elite trans sports with nuance, then how can we discuss an even more nuanced topic than trans elite sports?

That's all i'm saying. It's pretty obvious having an objection to Fallon Fox fighting biological women has more to it than pure hatred and bigotry towards trans women. If the gender ideology crowd can't acknowledge that or debate that civilly, I really see no chance of debating less clearcut topics. I deliberately chose it as the most extreme example I could think of to demonstrate how unreasonable and emotional I think that segment of the political spectrum is.

> So did you want to discuss trans elite sports or were you trying to demonstrate that people cannot handle a conversation with greater nuance? Or both at the same time?

The latter, but if you want to talk about the former we can do that too.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#56

Post by tarboreus »

tetranomiga wrote: post #40
ixacto wrote: post #27

Freedom of expression/free speech doesn’t mean freedom not to be offended or that you have to agree with the views. If we do not support even the most offensive speech then we risk a very slippery slope leading to censorship and 1984.

There's no historical reason to think that not supporting extreme speech will lead to fascism. There are historical reasons to think that curbing extremist speech protects democracy (see the Weimar Republic).

Why focus only on fascism? What about authoritarianism? Look at the USSR and the modern CCP.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#57

Post by threatofrain »

Moodles wrote: post #55
threatofrain wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are saying you choose to lead with elite trans sports, a niche phenomena of a niche phenomena, in order to demonstrate that you will be lambasted with abuse? And that is how you choose to lead with your speech? And you are saying if we can't discuss elite trans sports with nuance with civility, then how can we discuss an even more nuanced topic than trans elite sports? So did you want to discuss trans elite sp…

> And you are saying if we can't discuss elite trans sports with nuance, then how can we discuss an even more nuanced topic than trans elite sports? That's all i'm saying. It's pretty obvious having an objection to Fallon Fox fighting biological women has more to it than pure hatred and bigotry towards trans women. If the gender ideology crowd can't acknowledge that or debate that civilly, I really see no chance of d…

What do you have to say about the primary phenomena of clinical suffering? Its etiologies and its course in medical debate across the west? That is a discussion which hits squarely on "What is trans?"

But when you lead with Joe Rogan, I'd have to ask, is Joe Rogan the best you have?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#58

Post by beervirus »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #17
beervirus wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TERF isn’t a slur. No one has successfully beaten and killed a woman while calling her a TERF and then got away with it in court That’s hardly the defining characteristic of a slur.

I’ve associated the term slur in the common understanding with an actual history of marginalization, and I think the claim is totally unnecessary politicking in the reporting.

A slur is any term that’s “a disparaging remark or slight” according to dictionary.com. It’s hard to argue they’re not using the term TERF as disparaging.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#59

Post by sorenjan »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #22
sorenjan wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1a : an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo b : a shaming or degrading effect https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slur

It’s not shaming to say someone is against trans people nor is it disparaging unless someone is bringing politics and moralism into it. Like I said I don’t want even more gender politics from the other “side” as some kind of “backlash” journalistic piece. It’s all a wash of nonsense.

It's a disparaging remark to make it clear that the other person's opinions are wrong and that they as a person is of lesser value and should be ignored or attacked. It's used as a conversation stopper and to polarize the discussion, i.e. rally support from like minded and suppress the other party.

It's also not used merely to say that someone is against trans people, like you suggest. It's used by a toxic community that are immune to nuance and opposed to debate other than to force their own view on everyone else. Very few people are against trans people, but maybe some doesn't buy all of the identity politics. Saying that women menstruate is enough to be labeled a terf by the online mob. There's also rarely any radical feminism expressed by the people being labeled as terfs.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#60

Post by anoncake »

mkr-hn wrote: post #54
anoncake wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's in no position to complain, is she?

A huge part of advocating for the right to self-identify is about respecting identity whether you like/respect someone or not. She didn't get her contract renewed because she made it clear she was going to be an asshole to coworkers on this exact dimension. Correct gendering/identification is not something you have to earn. I still write J.K. Rowling's name out like that because it's how she goes by even though I wou…

I was being petty, yes.
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