A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#171

Post by JohnBooty » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

tetranomiga wrote: post #35

mabub24 wrote: post #20

One thing I find quite odd is how the study of gender emerged out of an approach that demanded a critical understanding of assumptions and the things society insist upon (that there are only 2 genders, that gender is essentially related to biological sex rather than something that is manifest in social behaviour, ect.) and yet that view has twisted into a sort of all or nothing view that is extremely antagonistic to…

I dunno if I'd agree that it's a small vocal minority, zero-tolerance to anybody questioning the current dogma is seen everywhere where trans acceptance is a focus. Ten years ago I was told, by trans people, that there are physical differences between trans and cis brains. Say that today, and you get kicked out of LGBT spaces for being a transmedicalist or truscum. I have no idea whether it's true or not because you…

I do not know anything about the subject of the linked article, nor her views. Did not venture past the pay/registration wall. I have no opinion about her.

    zero-tolerance to anybody questioning the current dogma is seen everywhere

Generally, of course dogma should be questioned.

However, academic freedom does not mean that universities must provide a platform to literally anybody that wants one. Their resources are finite and choices need to be made.

Surely, we can agree that some discussions by their very nature are harmful or at least deeply insulting. Imagine discussions such as "should women be allowed to vote?" or "are $ETHNICITY people worthwhile of being treated like other human beings?" or "was Hitler right?" or some other such topic.

I would certainly not say such speech should be banned, but it is equally clear to me that no institution should be obligated to provide a platform for such ideas.

It's worth noting that "teach the controversy" is the disingenuous rallying cry of creationists seeking to wedge anti-evolution religious dogma into US public school systems. Those people know that merely giving creationism a figurative seat at the table serves to legitimize it to some extent. They also hope to wear down their opposition (in this case, already-overworked educators) by consuming massive amounts of their time and energy. Well, such religious teachings should be denied a seat at the table, at least in publicly-funded secular schools.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#172

Post by MyHypatia » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:18 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #136

MyHypatia wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…

Fear of rape or pressurised sex amongst prisoners is perfectly real, but if a tiny minority of transpeople are a distant third in terms of sexual threat to female prisoners behind male warders and natal females and a campaign organization proposes rehousing transpeople (all 125 of them) in different prisons as their solution to prison rape over better safeguarding practises or single occupant cells which might offer…

I think housing intact trans-women in single occupant cells in women's prisons is a reasonable middle ground. The trans-women are in a space that affirms their gender identity, but it does not require cis-women to share a cell with someone who can rape and impregnate them.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#173

Post by lovegoblin » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:18 PM UTC

teh_infallible wrote: post #146

lovegoblin wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Regular" women The word you're looking for is "cis".

The world you’re looking for is “real”

I assure you it is not.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#174

Post by tsimionescu » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

metalliqaz wrote: post #104

throwaway284534 wrote: post #36

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

Sorry to break it to you, but chromosomes are prescriptive. You cannot simply ignore that there are differences between X and Y chromosomes. Society's distinctions between the sexes is not arbitrary. Why do we have separate bathrooms in public but not at home? Why do we have segregated sports? Why do we celebrate feminists but not MRAs? It's because there is a real-world difference.

Chromosomes are not detectable from the outside. Phenotype is not entirely dependent on genotype. Trans women may suffer from both certain "female" diseases and certain "male" diseases.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#175

Post by MyHypatia » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

brandmeyer wrote: post #158

MyHypatia wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…

Alternatively, this could be an opportunity to address sexual assault in prisons more broadly. No inmate, no matter how heinous their crimes, should be subjected to sexual assault. The prevalence and sexual assault in prisons is an example of a normalization of deviance that should be opposed, instead of tolerated.

I agree that it can be an opportunity to address sexual assault in prisons more broadly. My comment does not normalize or tolerate sexual assault.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#176

Post by IncRnd » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #145

What a tough problem to solve. My current thought on the gender identity issue is that society should default to the absolute minimum amount of categorizing people by their gender. What you identify as only matters to the extent that we divide people. Nobody would care if you used the women's bathroom, if such a thing did not exist. And when it is absolutely necessary for a distinction to exist, then we can spend the…

> This would mean throwing out a lot of the more epheremeral complaints "I feel unsafe if there is a man in the bathroom." Why? Let's fix that part, then. Because there are going to be scary women too.

Do you recognize that there are actual reasons that a woman might not want to go into a bathroom with 5 men in it?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#177

Post by jollybean » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

danielodievich wrote: post #138

One of my favorite sci-fi authors is Ian M. Banks (discussed here on HN with regularity). His Culture series describe a post-scarcity interstellar society of human(oid)s who among many, many things can change their own gender just by thinking about it. After suitable body alteration time, you can be a male, female, or even something in between (that happens to be important part of one of the characters in one of the…

This won't happen though. It reminds me of 'Star Trek' futurism where we crudely apply some neat technology to our own circumstances, without thinking about the real dynamic changes that would come about if the tech did exist.

If we ever get to the point of this level of technology, then the notion of 'gender' would be completely arcane.

People would be 'growing' wings, tails, horns, extra limbs, extra large brains, fur, hoofs, cross breeding with animals, creating new species in petrie dishes.

The 'regular humans' in that culture would be viewed like we view Amish people or Mennonites.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#178

Post by mike00632 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

Moodles wrote: post #120

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don’t like their identity being debated. Bringing up trans women in sports as a talking point would be pretty upsetting to most trans women as it is likely to feel like you’re invalidating their personal experience of being trans. There’s this thing with marginalized communities where people outside of the communities “just want to have a discussion” but the stakes of that conversation are way too high for mar…

I'm sorry, but this is a classic example of what I'm talking about. > People don’t like their identity being debated. But this is reframing. I'm not debating that someone is trans or should be treated with respect or anything like that. > Bringing up trans women in sports as a talking point would be pretty upsetting to most trans women as it is likely to feel like you’re invalidating their personal experience of bein…

But people are literally proposing a separate a set of laws and class of citizen for trans people over a fear that, as you admit, something that happens so seldomly that it's irrelevant.

The same thing happened with the "debate" about gays in the military. Bigots brought up the problem of shared showers in the military even though most gym showers are individual stalls. Still, this was used actually used as a rational to keep a ban on gay people, not recognize gay marriage (which means less pay for gay people in the military) and more.

Now we have proposals to ban trans people from public facilities, outlaw medical procedures for trans people and defund any publicly funded trans-related medical drug. And what is fueling this "discussion"?: bullshit stories about trans women assaulting people in bathrooms and sports being dominated by trans athletes (both of which are demonstrably false).

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#179

Post by omginternets » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

mike00632 wrote: post #124

fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

Do you feel the same way about nicknames? If you call someone by a nickname that they don't like and they let you know they prefer their own name then do you consider it too onerous to defer to them about it?

Do you think legislators and employers should get involved in decisions about nicknames? If so, that would make you some sort of authoritarian.

And this is what the debate is really about: authoritarian vs libertarian political attitudes. I’m certainly ready to have that debate, but it would require the “woke left” [0] to abandon the moral high-ground.

[0] There’s surely a better term to use, but I can’t think of it right now.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#180

Post by newsbinator » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

mike00632 wrote: post #124

fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

Do you feel the same way about nicknames? If you call someone by a nickname that they don't like and they let you know they prefer their own name then do you consider it too onerous to defer to them about it?

I defer to nicknames, but if the State or my university or my company forced me to, on pain of getting fired, expelled, fined, or worse, then I wouldn't want to defer to nicknames anymore on principle.

I don't care what gender someone calls themselves, and as a nice person I'll try to remember and use it, so long as they don't attempt to get me fired if I get it wrong.