All fundamentalism is bad. Including this comment.
A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities
111–120 of 1001 posts
Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities
#112I don't think gender ideology is an appropriate topic for HN. There is little to be gained and much to be lost from discussing it here. Little to be gained because it has nothing to do with software development, and because gender issues are thoroughly covered elsewhere. Much to be lost because gender issues are so divisive that we risk alienating members of our community.
I think HN is an excellent forum for this topic. It’s not just about development here, it’s also about the business of building tech companies. It’s not an accident HN was built on the side of Y-Combinator. Also if we can’t have a productive and civil discussion about it here, where can we? Sure we get trolls and wing nuts here, but fortunately there are enough adults that even divisive issues can get discussed productively. Not always, not on every topic, but it happens.
Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…
You would have to place them in solitary confinement then, as a trans woman could rape another trans woman.
Even beyond that, a cis woman can sexually assault another woman (Rape has different definitions depending on where you are, but clearly the distinction is irrelevant—sexual assault isn't inherently of a different impact, just different exact actions).
It's the exact same argument that was used as justification to try and criminalise homosexuality, that they would all be assaulting people in bathrooms, changing rooms, and prisons.
Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities
#114I don't think gender ideology is an appropriate topic for HN. There is little to be gained and much to be lost from discussing it here. Little to be gained because it has nothing to do with software development, and because gender issues are thoroughly covered elsewhere. Much to be lost because gender issues are so divisive that we risk alienating members of our community.
For what it's worth, I like that we discuss controversial topics here if only because it's the only online forum I'm aware of where this stuff can be discussed with any degree of productive dialogue or without a constant barrage of bad faith (which isn't to say there aren't bad faith commenters here, but the signal/noise ratio is much higher here).
Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities
#115I don't think gender ideology is an appropriate topic for HN. There is little to be gained and much to be lost from discussing it here. Little to be gained because it has nothing to do with software development, and because gender issues are thoroughly covered elsewhere. Much to be lost because gender issues are so divisive that we risk alienating members of our community.
> What to Submit [0]
> On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
Yes, gender ideology is pretty political (should it be?). But learning about it can obviously gratify one's intellectual curiosity if they're approaching it in good faith. So I don't think you're necessarily able to just make a blanket statement like "this isn't appropriate."
As for having much to lose, if you feel alienated by a good faith intellectual discussion -- regardless of topic -- that's your problem. This sort of thing is discussed daily in liberal arts programs across the US and in most of the world. You have to be able to discuss and learn about topics, even divisive ones, without losing your shit.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: And it looks like in the period of time it took me to type this half a dozen other people said the same thing.
Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities
#116> The arguments the two sides put forward, in other words, are complex and debatable. But many trans activists think that any disagreement is tantamount to hate speech and try to suppress it. This is 100% my personal experience also. Even on HN last week someone said I should try to be a "better human" and compared my suggestion that maybe someone might oppose transgender women in women's spaces for reasons other tha…
The idea is to set up rhetorical either-or's and then browbeat the majority into silence: Either you support unlimited immigration or you are a racist. Either you are 100% on board with the entire vaccine schedule or you are an anti-vaxxer. Either you say that Covid was a natural occurrence or you are a conspiracy theorist (and probably a racist too). And so on. Say what one will, but it's effective. I think one reas…
> Either you say that Covid was a natural occurrence or you are a conspiracy theorist (and probably a racist too).
Interesting how media coverage completely changed. Under the previous administration it was considered racist to even mention the theory and it's proponents were considered racists or conspiracy theorists. Why such a sudden change? China certainly didn't change its position on the issue...
Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities
#117There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…
That seems to me a very uncharitable take on the TERF position. For example, approximately 1/4 of women have been raped at some time. It's not very hard to see that such women could have a problem with someone who's biologically male in the women's room - a serious, traumatic problem. You can say that and still be sympathetic to the plight of trans people.
Sorry, I don't buy this concept that hordes of (or any, for that matter) predatory trans women are queuing up for the chance to prowl round changing rooms. Do you, really?
Say you're right. What stops them sneaking in right now? It's not like there are mandatory ID checks at the entrance.
Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities
#118A flyer with an image of a gun and text reading “shut the fuck up, terf” (trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur) was circulating Not accepting incivility from people is hardly what I'd call a "backlash". We don't operate our universities on the heckler's veto.
Also, I'm not aware of anyone who seriously considers "TERF" an offensive slur... It's like saying "bigot" is a slur, or being more afraid of being labelled a racist than actually being racist...
Plenty of TERFs consider it a slur and negative. JK Rowling, for example, wrote: "...activists who clearly believe themselves to be good, kind and progressive people swarmed back into my timeline, assuming a right to police my speech, accuse me of hatred, call me misogynistic slurs and, above all – as every woman involved in this debate will know – TERF."
Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
You would have to place them in solitary confinement then, as a trans woman could rape another trans woman.
No, you don't have to place them in solitary confinement. You can place them with other trans-women. Men are housed with men in jails. Yes, sometimes they commit violence against each other, including rape. But we don't put all men in solitary confinement.
This begs the question of why it is acceptable for men and trans women to be raped, but unacceptable for cis women to be raped?
There is no justification for accepting any prison rape—or, for that matter, sexual assault, which cis women are entirely capable of.
(And, to be clear, sexual assault is not inherently a lesser crime than rape, rape is just a specific form of sexual assault, and depending on jurisdiction, may be defined in such a way as a cis woman can be a rapist).
Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because I am making the point that even mentioning something as extreme as that still gets me lambasted with abuse. So if we can't even discuss that civilly, how on Earth are we meant to discuss more nuanced issues?
People don’t like their identity being debated. Bringing up trans women in sports as a talking point would be pretty upsetting to most trans women as it is likely to feel like you’re invalidating their personal experience of being trans. There’s this thing with marginalized communities where people outside of the communities “just want to have a discussion” but the stakes of that conversation are way too high for mar…
I'm sorry, but this is a classic example of what I'm talking about.
> People don’t like their identity being debated.
But this is reframing. I'm not debating that someone is trans or should be treated with respect or anything like that.
> Bringing up trans women in sports as a talking point would be pretty upsetting to most trans women as it is likely to feel like you’re invalidating their personal experience of being trans.
Ok? Feelings might be hurt. Feelings are subjective. That's not an argument. It's also pretty upsetting for the women who are now competing at a biological disadvantage. Particularly in combat sports where there's potentially dier consequences for losing. What about their feelings?
> Trans people’s existence is not for you to challenge or debate.
Again... That's not what I'm challenging or debating at all. I'll be honest, I fucking hate this debate switcheroo. I'm not challenging someone's existence. Listen to what I'm actually saying. This is so annoying to me.
> The best thing to do in situations like this is to let the marginalized people figure out what they need and then quietly listen to their conclusions
No, it isn't. Not when it affects more than just the marginalized community. If their actions affect others (e.g. women) then it's not primarily up to just them to figure out what they want to do.
Again, this is nothing to do with hate or bigotry. I'm not "debating their existence". I literally don't know how much clearer I can be here.
Sorry, I can't respond anymore since my account has been rate limited.