A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#21

Post by Moodles » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

> The arguments the two sides put forward, in other words, are complex and debatable. But many trans activists think that any disagreement is tantamount to hate speech and try to suppress it.

This is 100% my personal experience also. Even on HN last week someone said I should try to be a "better human" and compared my suggestion that maybe someone might oppose transgender women in women's spaces for reasons other than pure hatred or phobia of trans people, to segregation of blacks and whites. It's just absolutely impossible to have any disagreement with them without them trying these inane mob bully tactics. Being outraged should not be your only argument.

Take the case of Fallon Fox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox): a mixed martial artist transgender woman (who didn't even disclose she used to be a he while she was competing against women), or Laurel Hubbard, the New Zealand transgender olympic weightlifter in the news this week. Even mentioning these cases which clearly have more to them than pure hatred or phobia of trans people, still get lambasted with abuse.

What's really frustrating is that they don't really listen to what you actually say, but instead "read between the lines" and assume everything you say is just a ruse hidden behind some immense hatred and bigotry. How about no? Just take what I say at face value. No, I'm not full of hate. Yes, I know being transgendered must be hard. Yes, I do know some transgendered people (why is this relevant?). Yes, I am cisgendered myself. No, I really do think transgender women have an advantage in combat sports. No, again, I'm not full of hate... It's quite ridiculous.

... OP was flagged because...?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#22

Post by SamoyedFurFluff » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

sorenjan wrote: post #16

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #7

I don’t know if this article is describing this phenomenon accurately, as the first paragraph contains an obvious falsehood: “ A flyer with an image of a gun and text reading “shut the fuck up, terf” (trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur) was circulating. ”. TERF isn’t a slur. No one has successfully beaten and killed a woman while calling her a TERF and then got away with it in court like the gay panic defens…

1a : an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo b : a shaming or degrading effect https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slur

It’s not shaming to say someone is against trans people nor is it disparaging unless someone is bringing politics and moralism into it. Like I said I don’t want even more gender politics from the other “side” as some kind of “backlash” journalistic piece. It’s all a wash of nonsense.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#23

Post by gumby » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #7

I don’t know if this article is describing this phenomenon accurately, as the first paragraph contains an obvious falsehood: “ A flyer with an image of a gun and text reading “shut the fuck up, terf” (trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur) was circulating. ”. TERF isn’t a slur. No one has successfully beaten and killed a woman while calling her a TERF and then got away with it in court like the gay panic defens…

> TERF isn’t a slur.

I think the economist's usage was OK, as it appears in the supplied context to have been used as a slur (I'm not adequately connected on the topic to know what the "normal" usage would be).

> The whole article is suspect to be sympathetic to anti-trans politics as a result.

Clearly, given what I said above, I don't agree with this diagnosis. In particular I think a few articles like this are a good antidote to the "the universities are insane and have been taken over by crazy extremists" narrative.

Perhaps if this commend page doesn't descend into vitriol, more contextual discussion could lead me or you to modulate our opinion. As I said I don't follow this topic particularly closely, so my interpretation could be naïve.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#24

Post by SamoyedFurFluff » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

seneca wrote: post #12

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #7

I don’t know if this article is describing this phenomenon accurately, as the first paragraph contains an obvious falsehood: “ A flyer with an image of a gun and text reading “shut the fuck up, terf” (trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur) was circulating. ”. TERF isn’t a slur. No one has successfully beaten and killed a woman while calling her a TERF and then got away with it in court like the gay panic defens…

> No one has successfully beaten and killed a woman while calling her a TERF and then got away with it in court like the gay panic defense and the trans panic defense has. No one was lynched for being a TERF like black people have been. That is a bizarre standard for what constitutes a slur, and would exclude the vast majority of slurs. This reads more like an attempt to inject an emotional appeal to deny a point you…

I don’t actually care about the term itself, I care that a supposed journalism piece is actually inserting it’s own politics so blatantly.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#25

Post by seunoyebode » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

uhorb wrote: post #11

neom wrote: post #2

https://www.printfriendly.com/p/g/9kgBJa

I think this page is my takeaway of the day. Thank you!

haha... yeah right.

But doesn't work for ft.com articles

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#26

Post by terfisaslur » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:41 PM UTC

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #7

I don’t know if this article is describing this phenomenon accurately, as the first paragraph contains an obvious falsehood: “ A flyer with an image of a gun and text reading “shut the fuck up, terf” (trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur) was circulating. ”. TERF isn’t a slur. No one has successfully beaten and killed a woman while calling her a TERF and then got away with it in court like the gay panic defens…

It is a slur, it's used as an insult against women who refuse to bow to the gender ideology insanity. You don't get to be the arbiter of that.

So-called "anti-trans" politics is actually more sensitive to the needs of real transsexuals while the transgender movement makes life harder for women, homosexuals, and transsexuals primarily for the benefit of non binary and transgender people

TERF is a slur used by transgender activists against anyone who understands the difference between sex, gender, transsexuality, and transgenderism, and refuses to deny certain biological realities, like the fact that only women produce ova.

The fact that you don't realize it's a slur shows how uneducated you are on this topic. You're going to need to do better next time.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#27

Post by ixacto » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:41 PM UTC

Freedom of expression/free speech doesn’t mean freedom not to be offended or that you have to agree with the views.

If we do not support even the most offensive speech then we risk a very slippery slope leading to censorship and 1984.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#28

Post by Mediterraneo10 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:42 PM UTC

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #7

I don’t know if this article is describing this phenomenon accurately, as the first paragraph contains an obvious falsehood: “ A flyer with an image of a gun and text reading “shut the fuck up, terf” (trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur) was circulating. ”. TERF isn’t a slur. No one has successfully beaten and killed a woman while calling her a TERF and then got away with it in court like the gay panic defens…

I would suggest that it is a slur because it is used as a term of disparagement that often doesn't even accurately describe the target. The label gets thrown at women who are not RF, and sometimes women who, for whatever reason (for example, a religion they adhere to) would be reluctant to even call themselves F. At that point, I don't see how the word is any different than people e.g. referring to any Arabs as "camel jockeys".

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#29

Post by DaiPlusPlus » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:42 PM UTC

spiffotron wrote: post #9

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #7

I don’t know if this article is describing this phenomenon accurately, as the first paragraph contains an obvious falsehood: “ A flyer with an image of a gun and text reading “shut the fuck up, terf” (trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur) was circulating. ”. TERF isn’t a slur. No one has successfully beaten and killed a woman while calling her a TERF and then got away with it in court like the gay panic defens…

A slur is an insult, no one has to have died for something to be a slur, not sure where you got that idea from.

Right, but "slur" by itself is used as shorthand for "offensive slur" - typically racially-offensive slurs or homophobic slurs, and so on - I'm not aware of normal public discourse referring to everyday insults as "slurs" - whatever the original definition slur had it now has a connotation of insulting the target by way of comparing the target to an intentionally hurtful stereotype. (I could enumerate examples but nothing good can come from that, methinks...)

Whereas "TERF" is an acronym - it isn't appealing to anyone's emotional opinions about what a "TERF" represents - that is if anyone is even clued-up enough to know what it actually means.

Maybe the people complaining are assuming that TERF is an offensive slur without doing their research first? I'll admit it does have that feel to it, the way it sharply rolls off the tongue...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#30

Post by SamoyedFurFluff » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:43 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #23

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #7

I don’t know if this article is describing this phenomenon accurately, as the first paragraph contains an obvious falsehood: “ A flyer with an image of a gun and text reading “shut the fuck up, terf” (trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur) was circulating. ”. TERF isn’t a slur. No one has successfully beaten and killed a woman while calling her a TERF and then got away with it in court like the gay panic defens…

> TERF isn’t a slur. I think the economist's usage was OK, as it appears in the supplied context to have been used as a slur (I'm not adequately connected on the topic to know what the "normal" usage would be). > The whole article is suspect to be sympathetic to anti-trans politics as a result. Clearly, given what I said above, I don't agree with this diagnosis. In particular I think a few articles like this are a go…

There’s a difference between saying it’s used as a way to disparage someone and as a slur here. I’ve generally associated the term slur with a significant history of using it against a demographic, such as fggot, nggr, ch*nk, etc. saying that TERF is on the same level as those terms struck me as politicking and not journalism, which made me suspect the rest of the piece as political nonsense from the right.