Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#181

Post by yakireev » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 4:33 AM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #177

yakireev wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the contract only + no meetings + no HR (no culture bullshit, no “get to know people” social events) So, gig economy. Or, at best, hourly wage at Amazon warehouse, but for developers. I heard those warehouses are super extra no-bullshit efficient.

It’s certainly not perfect, but I genuinely think it’s much better than being an FTE anywhere else. Of course I’m biased. I mentioned benefits in another post, so I wouldn’t say it’s gig economy. What other environment could give a developer $100+/hr, ability to make their own schedule, and essentially all legal protections to work on side projects, work for other companies, etc. at the same time? Is it for everyone?…

I did not imply that your company is an Amazon warehouse, I'm sorry if it sounded like that.

But if this "hourly wage for hourly work and nothing else" becomes a norm, that's what we'll eventually get, I'm afraid.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#182

Post by lmm » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 4:35 AM UTC

bob1029 wrote: post #35

paxys wrote: post #17

It's an open secret at least in the tech world that absolutely no one is putting in a productive 40 hours of work a week. This was true well before the pandemic and is more pronounced than ever now. Everyone needs to be "present" for 8 hours a day 5 days a week, but spends their time in pointless meetings, preparing documents and powerpoints that no one will read, faux social/teambuilding events, hour long lunches, g…

> absolutely no one is putting in a productive 40 hours of work a week You are being a little broad with this statement. One can easily put in 60+ hours for weeks on end and be incredibly productive while doing it. Its all circumstantial. If you have no family, are the sole founder in the company, and really enjoy what you are doing, why the fuck would you stop at a 40 hour work week? Not all of us loathe the thing w…

> One can easily put in 60+ hours for weeks on end and be incredibly productive while doing it.

Do you have an objective measure of that? I've worked with plenty of people who thought they were being productive for 60+ hours/week, but none of their productivity actually stacked up. Founder/CTO types were the worst, they'd bypass process and cause outages but because of their position everyone had to coddle their ego and pretend that they were doing good work and the trouble wasn't their fault.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#183

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 4:38 AM UTC

yakireev wrote: post #181

ryanSrich wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s certainly not perfect, but I genuinely think it’s much better than being an FTE anywhere else. Of course I’m biased. I mentioned benefits in another post, so I wouldn’t say it’s gig economy. What other environment could give a developer $100+/hr, ability to make their own schedule, and essentially all legal protections to work on side projects, work for other companies, etc. at the same time? Is it for everyone?…

I did not imply that your company is an Amazon warehouse, I'm sorry if it sounded like that. But if this "hourly wage for hourly work and nothing else" becomes a norm, that's what we'll eventually get, I'm afraid.

[deleted]

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#184

Post by skhr0680 » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 4:39 AM UTC

The social contract in Japan was that you’d give your life to your employer in exchange for a fair wage and stable employment until you retired. Neither of those things are true now. Wages are low and companies either ignore their legal obligations or hire people as contractors, who have less rights than full time “employees”.

Now, many people, especially women* and young people are finding that it’s possible to run a small business for 3-4 days a week and make more money than an entry or even mid-level full time office job.

So, I think Japan finally enforcing rules against abusive behavior at the workplace and pushing for a 4-day week, if it really happens, is a reflection of where society is at right now.

*Women have a low wage ceiling because they are expected to quit and have children at any time.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#185

Post by MuffinFlavored » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 4:45 AM UTC

paxys wrote: post #17

It's an open secret at least in the tech world that absolutely no one is putting in a productive 40 hours of work a week. This was true well before the pandemic and is more pronounced than ever now. Everyone needs to be "present" for 8 hours a day 5 days a week, but spends their time in pointless meetings, preparing documents and powerpoints that no one will read, faux social/teambuilding events, hour long lunches, g…

> It's an open secret at least in the tech world that absolutely no one is putting in a productive 40 hours of work a week.

Is this true only in the US? What percentage of companies is this true for? How many jobs will tolerate this reality?

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#186

Post by wincy » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 4:46 AM UTC

etempleton wrote: post #139

AussieWog93 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowing the manager, he was extremely devoted to his work, the company and the craft. He was just holding holding me to his own standards. I'm assuming this is a problem in a lot of organisations; the people who rise to the top are the ones who lean more towards work on the work-life balance scale.

It can also just be an HR challenge in some organizations. It shouldn’t be, but sometimes organizations can get pretty rigid on how they define jobs and roles.

It is weird sometimes. Took me about ten recruiters reaching out before I finally found a company that was even willing to negotiate on vacation days. I have 23 vacation days a year, no thanks, I’m not going back to 15 until I work at your company for five years. Just accepted a new position with a 15% pay raise and 20 days, which when I do the math 23x=20x*1.15, which is funny because I came up with the number right on the spot and somehow did the math so I’d be getting equivalent monetary value benefits for my PTO.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#187

Post by Aeolun » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

My guess is they’ll ask employees to work 4 10 hour days, and ask them to come in for extra work on Friday and Saturday as a ‘special exception’. Of course, now the 10 hour workday is normalized, so you can extract extra time on the other days too.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#188

Post by boardwaalk » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 4:48 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #171

kumarvvr wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the government doesn't make laws that define broad principles, capitalism will eat you alive. Employers are greedy and evil. Their focus is profit maximization. Not employee well being. Given the chance, do you really think employers will even give vacation days to employees? No way. They will want you to work 24/7 if the govt. is ok with it.

> If the government doesn't make laws that define broad principles, capitalism will eat you alive. Has it? Levels of life of the whole world are on the rise for the past 20 years at least - if you want to make that argument the current data does not support that at all.

Look up the industrial revolution and labor laws. Y'know, when things like child labor were outlawed. Good things, I hope you will agree.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#189

Post by dopidopHN » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 4:49 AM UTC

bathtub365 wrote: post #179

dopidopHN wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I miss vacation so much. I just fly home from the US. And … I still have to work instead of just spending time with my parents that I haven’t seen in years. I earn more than 200k. ( not west coast ) it’s a decent salary right? Why can’t I have vacation, too? I asked and putted and asked again… All that will accomplish one thing: one day in the next 2 years I will wake up, look at my bank account. And quit. To have ac…

If your job is getting in the way of your life goals, why don’t you find one that doesn’t?

Oh. Thanks, never thought about it that way. Sarcasm aside yes: I’m not gonna keep working in the US for that specific reason.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#190

Post by cableshaft » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 4:49 AM UTC

MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #132

cableshaft wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's with this obsession to 'get back to where we were before'? Where we were before was broken, and the pandemic helped reveal that. Poor work/life balance, income inequality, industries built on JIT processes which fail spectacularly when the unexpected happens (see lumber, shipping containers, semiconductors, etc), an unfortunate wake-up call that even with entire industries shut down and almost no flights and c…

Green Tech isn't the savior we need. Flat out there needs to be a consumption revolution worldwide. Even if say we were all driving electric cars, on top of the energy required for normal everyday life now, you're also adding powering those cars. The necessary "reliable" green energy generation for that to happen is nothing short of trillions of dollars (when I say reliable, I mean exactly as you use it today). Yes I…

> People altogether need to stop driving so much, spending so much, and living more modestly.

Yeah I believe I said that when I said we need to make large sacrifices, I just didn't specify what those sacrifices were exactly.

I don't think green tech is the end-all be-all. I honestly think we're kind of fucked either way (if anything I was holding back, I've been reading some pretty bleak shit about how impossible this task will be and how bad things can get, but this is Hacker News and most people here don't seem to be receptive to that). Clean tech is just part of reducing the degree of how fucked we are, at least slightly.

And I also think nuclear energy needs to be part of that solution to bring down emissions as well, at least for now. I haven't been against nuclear power for a long time, and was disappointed how people shunned it again after Fukushima.