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For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

online.wsj.com

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Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#101

Post by DanielBMarkham »

Alex3917 wrote: post #44

"A passing [CPA exam] score indicates authentic competence" This is misleading, because the word authentic has a specific meaning in psychometrics. It means that the evaluation of competence is based off of things like observations, student journals, portfolios, inquiry projects, exhibits, hands-on activities, essays, performances, etc. A standardized test score is not considered to be an authentic measure of compete…

What makes you think the author was talking strictly in terms of psychometrics?

I assumed he was using common vernacular. Wouldn't it be odd for him to use such a technical term in the middle of an opinion piece in the WSJ?

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#102

Post by yummyfajitas »

krschultz wrote: post #85
Eliezer wrote: post #20

I've been saying this, almost to the exact letter, for the last 13 years. Not the "college is a waste of time" part, but the part about "we need to divorce the skill verification from the skill teaching".

That I agree with, but truthfully it is already there. CPA exam, professional engineer exam, bar exam, medical exams. What doesn't have an exam? Marketing, sales? There is a PE exam for computer engineering/science but no one takes it. Just push people to take them and it will accomplish the same thing.

>What doesn't have an exam?

Entry level office job. B.A. or B.S. required. It would be nice to have a GEBA, just like we have a GED.

Additionally, you can't take many of the exams you just mentioned without a degree. I.e. the degree and the exams are still married, the exam is just standardized.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#103

Post by stcredzero »

invisible wrote: post #93
stcredzero wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, the market only sorts out egregious programmers. The security certification is a wonderful idea! I think that would be a great place to start. (And end, perhaps.) The test for this could be entirely empirical. An applicant could be required to place $1000 in escrow, and implement a web application on the guild's servers. They would be required to add certain features. During the test, anyone would be we…

Although I did laugh, I have to ask if this was this a joke? So $1000 or $100 is what you pay (depending on if you fail or succeed)? Aside from the monetary figures you mentioned, sure it sounds like a great idea for a staffing business.

Not a joke. Do you think the amounts are too high? This thing doesn't even have to be a certification. It could be a contest.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#104

Post by yummyfajitas »

william42 wrote: post #89
un wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're assuming outsourcing is bad for individuals in the US, whereas most indications are the opposite, it increases their wealth. The point about the nongrad IT worker is that he would be able to create more wealth than he would as a local service worker (in the same way as offshore workers do). Increasing production (and hence wealth) from all workers, whether offshore or in US is better for society than allow…

"But you're assuming outsourcing is bad for individuals in the US, whereas most indications are the opposite, it increases their wealth." Evidence? I'm curious, mainly because I always hear about the Rust Belt and how it's been screwed over by outsourcing.

The rust belt was not sustainable. From about 1945 until the 70's, the US had an unfair competitive advantage over the rest of the world: our industrial capacity wasn't blown up. This led to an artificially large manufacturing sector in the US (we were exporting goods to the rest of the world). Once they fully recovered (roughly the 70's), there was no need for this.

If you want to bring back the rust belt, you'll probably need to start a large war in Europe and Asia...

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#105

Post by scott_s »

byrneseyeview wrote: post #34
ojbyrne wrote: post #4

The column seems to be entirely from the point of view of an employer looking to screen potential employees. Like it or not, college is about more than job training. For a lot of people the social life is a big part of it, the first part of life away from parents, but still with some security, and about intellectual exploration (answering the question - what exactly do I want to be when I grow up?). Perhaps none of t…

Like it or not, college is about more than job training. For a lot of people the social life is a big part of it, the first part of life away from parents, but still with some security, and about intellectual exploration It's funny, but I got a whole lot more of that stuff after dropping out. Am I really going to learn more from a place where I don't pay the rent, buy stuff with a meal card, work fifteen hours per we…

I worked a hell of a lot more than 15 hours per week in undergrad, and I showed up to every class.

If you don't put much effort into school, don't blame school that you got little out of it.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#106

Post by scott_s »

art_wells wrote: post #14

My college degree means nothing on paper professionally, but meant everything to my abilities to meet business and computing challenges. I didn't study computing at all. I don't expect that my experience is much different from others who have Liberal Arts degrees and found joy in technology. I've worked with many people who have degrees and certification in computing and many who don't. As a result of my experience,…

It sounds like you're just looking to hire people like you. You probably find it rewarding to approach a stack of resumes like that because every person you find who has a similar background as you is a validation of your own path.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#107

Post by art_wells »

scott_s wrote: post #106
art_wells wrote: post #14

My college degree means nothing on paper professionally, but meant everything to my abilities to meet business and computing challenges. I didn't study computing at all. I don't expect that my experience is much different from others who have Liberal Arts degrees and found joy in technology. I've worked with many people who have degrees and certification in computing and many who don't. As a result of my experience,…

It sounds like you're just looking to hire people like you. You probably find it rewarding to approach a stack of resumes like that because every person you find who has a similar background as you is a validation of your own path.

I've found it rewarding by seeing the team I helped hire, some of them eight years ago, do amazing things. I suppose, though, it might be time to speculate about my motivations and need for validation.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#108

Post by bokonist »

kingkongrevenge wrote: post #58
ojbyrne wrote: post #4

The column seems to be entirely from the point of view of an employer looking to screen potential employees. Like it or not, college is about more than job training. For a lot of people the social life is a big part of it, the first part of life away from parents, but still with some security, and about intellectual exploration (answering the question - what exactly do I want to be when I grow up?). Perhaps none of t…

> For a lot of people the social life is a big part of it I think a little discussed reason college is such a big deal in America is because most communities are so socially and architecturally dysfunctional. Many colleges provide what a proper town/city is supposed to: public spaces and facilities, walkability, organizations with civic and social functions, etc. It's only because people graduate and go live in alien…

Agreed. I think the problem is that towns and cities are run as democracies, where every faction tries to twist the government to do it's own special interest. Thus homeowners will put in place 1/4 acre per house zoning laws, developers will get rights to build big box stores, etc. No one looks out for the whole. A university's only goal is to maximize the satisfaction of its students in order to boost its own revenue. It does this amazingly well.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#109

Post by bokonist »

krschultz wrote: post #85
Eliezer wrote: post #20

I've been saying this, almost to the exact letter, for the last 13 years. Not the "college is a waste of time" part, but the part about "we need to divorce the skill verification from the skill teaching".

That I agree with, but truthfully it is already there. CPA exam, professional engineer exam, bar exam, medical exams. What doesn't have an exam? Marketing, sales? There is a PE exam for computer engineering/science but no one takes it. Just push people to take them and it will accomplish the same thing.

It's not there because all those professional guilds legally require a college degree. It used to be you could just pass the bar and become a lawyer. The bar associations then got laws passed requiring an actual law degrees, so people took inexpensive correspondence courses. The lawyers then fought back by requiring the schools be accredited, and setting minimum rules for face time. Thus you are forced to pay very expensive law school tuition to practice as a lawyer. This pushes up the wages of the current lawyers, who got the law passed. The whole thing is a scam.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#110

Post by Alex3917 »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #101
Alex3917 wrote: post #44

"A passing [CPA exam] score indicates authentic competence" This is misleading, because the word authentic has a specific meaning in psychometrics. It means that the evaluation of competence is based off of things like observations, student journals, portfolios, inquiry projects, exhibits, hands-on activities, essays, performances, etc. A standardized test score is not considered to be an authentic measure of compete…

What makes you think the author was talking strictly in terms of psychometrics? I assumed he was using common vernacular. Wouldn't it be odd for him to use such a technical term in the middle of an opinion piece in the WSJ?

Well he is probably the world's most famous psychometrician and the article is about psychometrics. I suspect he is using the word incorrectly on purpose because he doesn't like the definition. It's kind of like if a famous conservative wrote a book about the flat tax and titled the book Progressive Taxation.
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