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For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

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Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#51
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could create certification tests for those as well - general knowledge test, creativity test, writing test, personality test

I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not. I can see it now: "I'm a certified Awesome Dude."

No I'm being serious, and "Awesome Dude" is in the eye of the beholder, you can only really judge that in interviewing.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#52
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have those in some industries: It's how you get to be a plumber for instance.

We really need that in Programming!

No, we don't. I don't want some guild or certification authority telling me I can't program for a living until I've done 2 years of "journeyman" programming and passed my licensing exams.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We really need that in Programming!

No, we don't. I don't want some guild or certification authority telling me I can't program for a living until I've done 2 years of "journeyman" programming and passed my licensing exams.

Is that what Murray is advocating? The article I read suggested that using standardized tests would be a cheaper alternative than college -- but if you'd prefer four years of paying and not working to two years of getting paid to learn, you can at least enjoy the status quo.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#54
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would go further to say that the current system is disadvantaging rich countries immensely. I typical person without a college degree is likely to think he shouldn't even attempt to seek work such as IT (it's for those college educated types), and instead heads into the local service economy (further depressing wages there), instead of earning money for the country in globally based economy.

The certification system he's talking about would massively accelerate global outsourcing of US jobs. ISO 9000 certification in the 80s and 90s played a huge role in sending US manufacturing overseas. People were reluctant to believe that factories in various second and third world countries could be just as good. Then the certs proved pretty well that they were! Same deal now with personnel. Employers are sometimes…

But you're assuming outsourcing is bad for individuals in the US, whereas most indications are the opposite, it increases their wealth. The point about the nongrad IT worker is that he would be able to create more wealth than he would as a local service worker (in the same way as offshore workers do). Increasing production (and hence wealth) from all workers, whether offshore or in US is better for society than allowing inefficiencies and protectionism to prevail.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's written from that perspective because college degrees are used as a proxy for job training, and most people pursue them so they can get a better job, which makes the system broken. The other benefits of the college experience don't require college anyway, and are cost-prohibitive to a lot of people. I don't think he was arguing that nobody should do 4 years of college. Just that employers need a better vetting s…

From the article: "...bachelor's degree tells an employer nothing except that the applicant has a certain amount of intellectual ability and perseverance. Even a degree in a vocational major like business administration can mean anything from a solid base of knowledge to four years of barely remembered gut courses." So either the graduate is knowledgeable and the system did its job, or the graduate knows how to be a…

Agree. The causation (i.e. getting college degree makes you a much better employee because of specific knowledge learned) might be a myth but the correlation (people with at least passable intelligence/work ethic and the dedication and ability to do what they're told, which are the primary traits wanted by corporations, are more likely to get a college degree) is so strong that it still has a lot of value to employers, even if they don't fully understand why.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#57
I think someone should start a secret society of young women enrolled in institutions of higher learning. The upperclassmen leaders of these secret societies would observe the freshmen males, searching for individuals of exceptional potential hampered by extreme awkwardness and sexual insecurity. They'd arrange to ensnare these freshmen in a series of relationships as a part of a program to groom them for leadership and to inoculate them against misogyny.

Maybe they could call themselves the "Bene Gesserit?"

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#58
post #4

The column seems to be entirely from the point of view of an employer looking to screen potential employees. Like it or not, college is about more than job training. For a lot of people the social life is a big part of it, the first part of life away from parents, but still with some security, and about intellectual exploration (answering the question - what exactly do I want to be when I grow up?). Perhaps none of t…

> For a lot of people the social life is a big part of it

I think a little discussed reason college is such a big deal in America is because most communities are so socially and architecturally dysfunctional. Many colleges provide what a proper town/city is supposed to: public spaces and facilities, walkability, organizations with civic and social functions, etc. It's only because people graduate and go live in alienating suburban asteroid belts or in soulless political-machine big cities that they idealize college so much.

College isn't so great, it's just adult life in most of America sucks. But it's not like that every where.

p.s. The oft repeated "college rounds people out" line desperately needs data. I think it's a load of bullshit.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We really need that in Programming!

No, we don't. I don't want some guild or certification authority telling me I can't program for a living until I've done 2 years of "journeyman" programming and passed my licensing exams.

I'm having trouble finding it right now, but there was a good argument posted here a while back for requiring a certification proving that programmers know how to write secure code. The analogy was that the market can already sort out good chefs from bad chefs, but that there should be a basic certification to prove that you understand food safety.
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