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For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

online.wsj.com

31–40 of 147 posts

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#31
I'm torn between two somewhat incompatible visions:

1. College should train you for some sort of career and should do so in the most rigorously objective way possible. In this view, certifications provide the gold standard of objectivity.

2. College should help you become well rounded, responsible adults. By which I mean, able to reason about complex issues, having some background in history, science, philosophy, literature, the arts, a basic understanding of subjects that affect our lives, such as economics, etc... In other words, the sort of people who desire to remain informed about political events, who could weigh several candidates for office and be able to apply some sort of selection criteria beyond a mere gut instinct. In other words, the sort of people that keep democracy on track.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#32

The problem with this plan is that it will just make every college vocational. Why waste money on classes that don't apply for your certificate? Why spend time playing with classes that could lead you to a different certificate when you are already 20% done with this one? Or better yet, why not get a couple princeton review books to pass the test? I passed 35 credits of AP exams in high school, all with 5 out of 5s,…

Requiring everyone to learn some nonpractical things is a waste of societal resources. If some people want to learn something just for the sake of it, they could join reading groups/attend lectures on their own time.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#33

The problem with this plan is that it will just make every college vocational. Why waste money on classes that don't apply for your certificate? Why spend time playing with classes that could lead you to a different certificate when you are already 20% done with this one? Or better yet, why not get a couple princeton review books to pass the test? I passed 35 credits of AP exams in high school, all with 5 out of 5s,…

I met an Irish engineer. He said that all of his classes in college had to do with engineering. If he wanted to study the Classics, the attitude was that he could just go and do that in his own time.

Personally, I think this is better. If you try to legislate breadth in your students, then you end up just making a mockery of what you're trying to teach. You end up accomplishing the opposite of what you were trying to do.

I spent a few years teaching Computer Science 101/102 as a TA. A whole lot of my students were in Journalism, Communications, or Criminology or some area like that and just trying to get their math requirement out of the way. My conclusion in retrospect: to most of my students, this was largely just a bureaucratic exercise.

If you want true students, you need to find the students that have the interest and desire.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#34
post #4

The column seems to be entirely from the point of view of an employer looking to screen potential employees. Like it or not, college is about more than job training. For a lot of people the social life is a big part of it, the first part of life away from parents, but still with some security, and about intellectual exploration (answering the question - what exactly do I want to be when I grow up?). Perhaps none of t…

Like it or not, college is about more than job training. For a lot of people the social life is a big part of it, the first part of life away from parents, but still with some security, and about intellectual exploration

It's funny, but I got a whole lot more of that stuff after dropping out. Am I really going to learn more from a place where I don't pay the rent, buy stuff with a meal card, work fifteen hours per week but don't necessarily have to show up, and am surrounded by proto-alcoholics? If you can deduce the modern college experience from any sane set of first principles, I'd like to hear about it -- but it seems to me that Murray is right. If we didn't have college, and you tried to invent it, you'd be rightly denounced as a loon.

And he puts too much faith in certification tests as "classless", in my opinion. I used to do test prep, and like most things, the people who have the money and the time to train for the certifications have an advantage.

Murray has crunched the numbers rather than counting the anecdotes; studying for the SAT can raise scores a lot at first, but if you studied two hours per day for 150 days, your expected score increase would be seventy points. Murray cites this (http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetai...), which I haven't read. It would be a good plan to introduce your convictions to some data, so you can back up your assertion with something besides "I used to do test prep, and envy rich people too much to wonder what I can learn from them."

Perhaps none of that is worth the lost time, but when I see it in the WSJ, my initial reaction is that it's another right wing wacko who sees college as just too many liberals with too much influence.

You also might be happier if 1) you didn't assume that the newspaper that recently published a Barbara Ehrenreich piece (http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB121380066376984...) was irredeemably right-wing, and 2) if you considered the possibility that since college professors are overwhelmingly liberal (http://cellasreview.blogspot.com/2002_08_25_cellasreview_arc...) and nearly impossible to fire, they would consist of a greater than average number of liberals who do, indeed, have too much influence.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#35

I'm torn between two somewhat incompatible visions: 1. College should train you for some sort of career and should do so in the most rigorously objective way possible. In this view, certifications provide the gold standard of objectivity. 2. College should help you become well rounded, responsible adults. By which I mean, able to reason about complex issues, having some background in history, science, philosophy, lit…

In the UK, the higher education system is as you desribed in point 1, you get a degree in exactly your subject. yet they have no shortage of people who can debate on the issues you mention in point 2.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#36

College is an aspect of upper- and upper-middle-class life (formerly) that has replicated on account of the status and advantage once conferred by the college degree. Now it's a requirement for a large set of jobs, most of which wouldn't even be considered desirable. Is college a massive waste of time and money for a lot of people? Probably. I think it's useless and unfair to put a person through college and then hav…

"turned the academy to its needs" -- nay, it practically started out that way!

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#37
post #9

This is better than most "college is a waste" articles, but it repeats a common mistake: thinking that people are hired for their skills. When I'm hiring, I don't want someone with a "web design" certificate or a "Python programming" certificate, or (worse) a "sales and marketing" certificate. I want someone who is smart, passionate, loves to learn, thinks creatively, knows how to write, and is enjoyable to work with…

And all else being equal, wouldn't the test help you? If you can, it's probably best to hire based on things like passion and creativity. But if your main python developer quits two weeks from your launch date, it might be more convenient to hire someone who already knows the language, and can prove it.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#38
Well its probably true, look at most liberal arts majors, they spend 4 years learning and then go back to the same job at GAP because they can't find any job in their field.

It seems like going to college is a requirement now, where people go there because its expected of them. They don't go to learn, they go there to put in the time(like in highschool)

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#39

The problem with this plan is that it will just make every college vocational. Why waste money on classes that don't apply for your certificate? Why spend time playing with classes that could lead you to a different certificate when you are already 20% done with this one? Or better yet, why not get a couple princeton review books to pass the test? I passed 35 credits of AP exams in high school, all with 5 out of 5s,…

The problem with this plan is that it will just make every college vocational.

The problem with this view is that some people just want the vocational part, and bundling it with something they don't want, but for which they will be charged, just makes them worse off. Being able to buy A or B is better than only being able to buy A and B.

It would be pretty annoying if some forward-thinking politician realized that a keyboard is worthless without a computer, and unilaterally banned the sale of keyboards that didn't come with a computer. But that would be a terrible plan.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#40

College is an aspect of upper- and upper-middle-class life (formerly) that has replicated on account of the status and advantage once conferred by the college degree. Now it's a requirement for a large set of jobs, most of which wouldn't even be considered desirable. Is college a massive waste of time and money for a lot of people? Probably. I think it's useless and unfair to put a person through college and then hav…

Sounds like we need to end the tenure system and get the academic "pigs" off their high horses!
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