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For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

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Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#81

Post by stcredzero »

Alex3917 wrote: post #60
menloparkbum wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we don't. I don't want some guild or certification authority telling me I can't program for a living until I've done 2 years of "journeyman" programming and passed my licensing exams.

I'm having trouble finding it right now, but there was a good argument posted here a while back for requiring a certification proving that programmers know how to write secure code. The analogy was that the market can already sort out good chefs from bad chefs, but that there should be a basic certification to prove that you understand food safety.

The thing is, the market only sorts out egregious programmers.

The security certification is a wonderful idea! I think that would be a great place to start. (And end, perhaps.) The test for this could be entirely empirical. An applicant could be required to place $1000 in escrow, and implement a web application on the guild's servers. They would be required to add certain features. During the test, anyone would be welcome to try and hack the website. If anyone can prove that they are successful, they get the $1000. If the features all get implemented with no hacking, then the applicant gets their money back, minus the fee.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#82

Post by Jaytee »

Great article, though my day-dreamed educational system would be a little bit different. But who is to say which one's better until you implement them.

On the same note, High school and middle school are pretty much a waste of time. In fact, any kind of system that categorize kids into homogeneous age groups are socially and psychologically unhealthy. How can kids learn form their peers if all of them have just about the same exposure and experience in the world? That's why we have all these angsty kids, because no knows better.

I've been teaching on the side for a few years. And from my experience, when I mix kids of different ages, they assume instinctual responsibilities (almost tribal). Older kids become more authoritative and care-giving. Younger kids become more attentive and respectful. This kind of social learning is both top-down and bottom-up.

I understand the importance of school as a social environment. But if it's going to be homogeneous and unrepresentative of the real world, no real social skills will come out of it.

Don't take my word for it. I'm sure we all have interacted with college grads who are clueless about the real world.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#83

Post by bbgm »

kansando wrote: post #24

College is a place where you learn to learn, or should be...

Agreed. Seeing comments here and elsewhere, one wonders if people actually care about quality education just because it's a good thing? How about access lab facilities, the ability to interact with other smart people, hopefully to learn from good teachers, or do quality research? College and grad school was all that for me. Was it perfect. Not at all, but given a choice, I'd do it again.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#84

Post by MaysonL »

byrneseyeview wrote: post #34
ojbyrne wrote: post #4

The column seems to be entirely from the point of view of an employer looking to screen potential employees. Like it or not, college is about more than job training. For a lot of people the social life is a big part of it, the first part of life away from parents, but still with some security, and about intellectual exploration (answering the question - what exactly do I want to be when I grow up?). Perhaps none of t…

Like it or not, college is about more than job training. For a lot of people the social life is a big part of it, the first part of life away from parents, but still with some security, and about intellectual exploration It's funny, but I got a whole lot more of that stuff after dropping out. Am I really going to learn more from a place where I don't pay the rent, buy stuff with a meal card, work fifteen hours per we…

The Wall Street Journal may or may not be irredeemably right-wing, but I'd bet on it. Also, looking at Murray's record on number-crunching, and I do mean The Bell Curve, betting on it to be anything more than BS with lipstick would be a losing proposition.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#85

Post by krschultz »

Eliezer wrote: post #20

I've been saying this, almost to the exact letter, for the last 13 years. Not the "college is a waste of time" part, but the part about "we need to divorce the skill verification from the skill teaching".

That I agree with, but truthfully it is already there. CPA exam, professional engineer exam, bar exam, medical exams. What doesn't have an exam? Marketing, sales? There is a PE exam for computer engineering/science but no one takes it. Just push people to take them and it will accomplish the same thing.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#86

Post by jmtulloss »

whacked_new wrote: post #16
ojbyrne wrote: post #4

The column seems to be entirely from the point of view of an employer looking to screen potential employees. Like it or not, college is about more than job training. For a lot of people the social life is a big part of it, the first part of life away from parents, but still with some security, and about intellectual exploration (answering the question - what exactly do I want to be when I grow up?). Perhaps none of t…

I find the whole "college is..." or "college is not..." to be a problematic mindset in itself. For example, why not develop social skills in high school? Many of the student leaders I know from college started as high school student leaders. Now we're talking about "HS is..." or "HS is not..." or "HS sucks." Why wait until HS? Now we're talking about MS... then lower school. Then it's just your entire life as an indi…

Many schools are moving towards this. You can take some HS courses in MS if you've demonstrated the motivation, and you can take college courses in HS as well.

Having just graduated college, I see it as the most valuable experience of my life. I've defined who I am and what I want to do in the past four years, and learned a ton about engineering on the side.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#87

Post by william42 »

un wrote: post #29
jon_dahl wrote: post #9

This is better than most "college is a waste" articles, but it repeats a common mistake: thinking that people are hired for their skills. When I'm hiring, I don't want someone with a "web design" certificate or a "Python programming" certificate, or (worse) a "sales and marketing" certificate. I want someone who is smart, passionate, loves to learn, thinks creatively, knows how to write, and is enjoyable to work with…

You could create certification tests for those as well - general knowledge test, creativity test, writing test, personality test

"Creativity test" to me sounds like something that wouldn't work well.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#88

Post by un »

art_wells wrote: post #71
un wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds pretty elitist, and your company might suffer for it.

I'm sure there might be problems with choosing the wrong criteria, but I can't see how "elitism" in itself can be a cause of problems in the hiring process.

By elitist I meant to say cliquey, you might filter out people you would really excel

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#89

Post by william42 »

un wrote: post #54
kingkongrevenge wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The certification system he's talking about would massively accelerate global outsourcing of US jobs. ISO 9000 certification in the 80s and 90s played a huge role in sending US manufacturing overseas. People were reluctant to believe that factories in various second and third world countries could be just as good. Then the certs proved pretty well that they were! Same deal now with personnel. Employers are sometimes…

But you're assuming outsourcing is bad for individuals in the US, whereas most indications are the opposite, it increases their wealth. The point about the nongrad IT worker is that he would be able to create more wealth than he would as a local service worker (in the same way as offshore workers do). Increasing production (and hence wealth) from all workers, whether offshore or in US is better for society than allow…

"But you're assuming outsourcing is bad for individuals in the US, whereas most indications are the opposite, it increases their wealth."

Evidence? I'm curious, mainly because I always hear about the Rust Belt and how it's been screwed over by outsourcing.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#90

Post by william42 »

un wrote: post #63
art_wells wrote: post #14

My college degree means nothing on paper professionally, but meant everything to my abilities to meet business and computing challenges. I didn't study computing at all. I don't expect that my experience is much different from others who have Liberal Arts degrees and found joy in technology. I've worked with many people who have degrees and certification in computing and many who don't. As a result of my experience,…

Sounds pretty elitist, and your company might suffer for it.

Considering that the maxim for the new millenium is "Safe is risky and risky is safe" I think he might be doing the best thing. All in all, it seems like today the best way to approach things is to be different and his hiring policies are definitely different. Sure, he might fail, but would he be able to succeed if he did the same thing as everything else?
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