Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life • Hacker News Board

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#591

Post by ewmiller » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 5:28 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #580

ewmiller wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but read this as a kind of "let them eat cake" argument. Sure, some cars have electric starters now... how does that matter? Plenty of poor, working class people do not own cars. They're getting priced out of the cities they've lived in their whole lives. Working class wages have been stagnant for decades. Healthcare and education costs have risen much faster than inflation. A huge percentage of American…

Look at the kinds of projects apartments and leaky rural shacks the poor of the 50s-70s lived in. You might have to combine five to get what we today consider one working set of appliances and utilities. Section 8 apartments and double wides are such a massive step up from that. There will always be a bottom of the economic latter. But that bottom has moved up a lot over the past couple generations. Mobility is a som…

I'm not denying that. Of course average standards are better now than they were in the 1950's. But that argument is frequently used as a distraction to avoid talking about very achievable ways that we in America could improve living standards even further, or about very real ways in which lower class people are still suffering even though they might have an Xbox at home. All of the problems I mentioned in my above comment are still valid even though a section 8 apartment is better than a tin shed, yet you didn't address any of them. "There will always be a bottom of the economic ladder" is not an excuse for the wealthiest nation on earth to still allow people to be financially ruined for visiting the ER, for example.

Also, the myth of mobility is not an entirely separate topic, in that it's another distraction frequently employed to place problems on the individual and avoid talking about systemic changes that could take place to benefit people on a broader scale.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#592

Post by nicbou » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

traveler01 wrote: post #508

kaladin_1 wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hahahaha If you said you were Nigerian, I wouldn't be surprised at all. Politicians are the real big shots with few exceptions of course.

I'm Portuguese. It's an European country but sometimes doesn't look like it. We get fed the notion that if we work hard, study, pay our taxes in time and etc we will be good in life. Absolute lies, a big percentage of poor people in Portugal actually have jobs and these jobs are stable... We also have licensed workers receiving minimum wage (640€)...

How is that? Isn't the minimum vacation time in the EU around 20 days?

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#593

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

bstar77 wrote: post #573

lotsofpulp wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't need to be an elite to have access to the critical material, you just need the desire to pursue it. For most children and teenagers, this desire is at least partly a function of one’s peers. Hence the premium placed on houses in certain school districts or neighborhoods.

That's pretty much the point I was making. The whole community has to buy into the value of education. If you are getting harassed by your peers because you are reading a book for enjoyment, you are likely going to stop.

My intention was to point out that “you just need the desire to pursue it” is often not just a “you” problem, unfortunately, since people are heavily influenced by their environment.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#594

Post by pope_meat » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

j_walter wrote: post #489

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately public schools in poor neighborhoods are getting shittier and parents need to pay for private tutors and summer school. Guess who can afford that? Education doesn't fall out of the sky.

If parents value education they don't need to pay for tutors or summer school. I grew up in district with shitty schools, but I saw some kids succeed only because they learned stuff on their own. Those schools aren't necessarily shittier...they are filled with kids that don't want to learn (and their parents increasingly blame the teachers for their failure).

So, it's just a statistical reality that kids in poor areas don't want to learn, and that's why the results show poorer people doing worse in education that rich people?

Interesting hill to die on, but you do you.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#595

Post by Frondo » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #576

apercu wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how is that any different than saying in 1918 a car was a want but in 1950 a car was a requirement for many people? I suspect that the answer to these types of questions is that most people don't want to admit how mind-fucked we all are in to believing the bullshit that we are inundated with from the most powerful classes and how little freedom and financial mobility exists in the USA.

I’m not sure how requiring a car (because you need to drive to work) is equivalent to owning the latest hot gadget or having food delivered to you on demand.

Was it your intent to conflate things that are arguably necessities for participating in modern life ("smart phones, unlimited data") with things that are not ("eating out 3-4 times a week, uber eats")?

Because when someone pushed back on you, saying that smartphone ownership now is like car ownership became at some point in the past -- a necessity -- and then you changed it from "smart phones" to "the latest hot gadget".

So it's no longer clear whether you think smart phones and unlimited data are indulgences like ubereats is, or where one might draw the line according to you.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#596

Post by ewmiller » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #513

ewmiller wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but read this as a kind of "let them eat cake" argument. Sure, some cars have electric starters now... how does that matter? Plenty of poor, working class people do not own cars. They're getting priced out of the cities they've lived in their whole lives. Working class wages have been stagnant for decades. Healthcare and education costs have risen much faster than inflation. A huge percentage of American…

Their standard of living is going up.

And yet, if they or a family member have to visit the emergency room, they will likely be financially ruined.

I recently visited the ER for some chest pain which amounted to nothing and was charged $4,000 for it. Imagine what that would do to the 60% (!!) of Americans who can't come up with $500 for an emergency (see my top comment about stagnant wages, rising rent, and astronomical health care costs).

Comments like yours are easily and frequently used to distract from very real systemic problems that working class people still face. Access to cheaper smartphones doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but food and housing security and the ability to get medical treatment without fear of going bankrupt sure do.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#597

Post by Frondo » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #423

leto_ii wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> eating out 3-4 times a week What percentage of the western population eats out 3-4 times a week? I'd bet it isn't more than 10-20%, depending on the country. > Uber Eats delivery Not sure the people who do the delivering can afford having food delivered in turn (at least not 3-4 times a week).

According to the survey, 56 percent say they dine at a restaurant, get take out or have a meal delivered 2 to 3 times a week. Fully 10 percent said they eat out 4 to 6 times a week, and 6 percent said they eat out everyday. https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2019/05/16/survey-shows-how-o...

It's unfortunate that the link to the actual survey:

https://www.fourth.com/resource/truth-about-dining-out-infog...

is now dead. All this is is a news site quoting it, second-hand, and I have seen enough news sites get original reporting wrong not to place a great deal of stock in them getting it right.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#598

Post by dcveloper » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #449

ewmiller wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> valuing education means people succeed. So why didn't the parents succeed then? Picture a first-generation immigrant family in America where the parents are older, don't speak English very well, and spend almost all their time working multiple jobs to pay bills and provide food and shelter for their kids. They then push their kids to do well in school because they know it's practically too late for themselves, but…

Unfortunately public schools in poor neighborhoods are getting shittier and parents need to pay for private tutors and summer school. Guess who can afford that? Education doesn't fall out of the sky.

The quality of education is dictated innate ability, parents, and school system. I like to think of as a three leg stool. If one leg is missing, it's possible to balance. If two are missing, no amount of money will solve the problem.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#599

Post by kangnkodos » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

codyswann wrote: post #546

wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

I've been a mid-level manager, upper-level manager and now run my own company. I simply won't hire or promote someone who isn't a hard worker. Does it guarantee success? Nope. Is it a requirement for success in many circumstances? Yep.

What if I came to work at your company as janitor? And I did a great job. Worked hard. Attention to detail. Polite, and easy to work with. Arrived early every day. Stayed late. The best janitor in every way.

What are the chances I would move into another position at your company?

My guess is 0%.

You might keep me employed, and not fire me. Maybe pay me a little more. But there would be no realistic hope to jump up to the next level.

That's been the case for a long, long time.

But now something new is happening. Now professionals at many companies are realizing that they are in the same position. They see that hard work will not lead them to jump to the next level.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#600

Post by sgeisler » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

CraneWorm wrote: post #143

esens wrote: post #37

Working hard but doing so for someone else can often not lead to significant gains. Many services like Uber or InstaCart or even McDonalds or Amazon Warehouse or Walmart or Retail Sales or call center, you can work hard but there is no where to progress to. Your rewards are capped. You need to find a way to work hard such that your rewards are not capped artificially. Startups were you get equity. Large companies whe…

Post-scarcity cannot come fast enough; the (external) need to work hard should just die in a fire.

There will never be post-scarcity, because we'll never have enough. Using cutting-edge technology always requires people to work hard to build said technology. If it didn't require work and just wishful thinking we'd already have it. The builders and engineers will always want _something_ in exchange or they won't make said tech accessible to you. The curiosity of nerds only gets you so far (see open source UX).

Maybe you won't have to work/pay for food if accounting for it becomes more work than producing it (if sufficiently automated and not resource-constrained). But if you want to live in a hip neighborhood (by definition there is limited availability), have your own flying car, go on vacation on the moon once a year where real people service you etc. you'll have to work for that. Because the ingenuity and work necessary to make this all happen will still be enormous.

Maybe you think you'd be happy with your today's lifestyle, which might be attainable for ~free. But I think the reality for most is that they'd grow jealous of their friends posting selfies from the moon and resent "the evil rich" again.

The small amount of work necessary to _survive_ today would sound marvelous to someone from even 100 years ago (clothes, food, shelter outside major cities). Mowing one lawn for 1-2h every day would probably be enough for that. But surviving isn't the point of being human, it's about stretching the limits of what is possible and that will always take as much work as we are willing to put into it.