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Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

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Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#511

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Work 3 jobs. Get a mortgage for a low income home. Double up your mortgage payments. Build up equity. Sell it. Use it as a down payment for a nice home. Get a promotion and quit one job. Not that difficult.

The real problem are people around you. Not environment. More like locking up one person for a petty crime, and you find out all these arsons and murders suddenly stop.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tape an envelope prominently to the top of your trash cans; or go out and catch them for a face to face chat.

I live in a relatively safe neighborhood and have no confidence $20 left taped to a trash can on the curb would survive the night. I guess one could tape it inside the lid? Even that wouldn't survive the night in grittier neighborhoods.

My wife said much the same thing; and we're so rural no one actually drives past our trash cans but us. We put ours out a couple hours before they come by; can't leave trash by the road overnight cuz the coyotes will scatter it all over.

Civil society vanished quick, apparently. I once knew the kind of people who would steal cars or anything else because they could; and those people would've found the notion of stealing tips low.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen those reports myself. However they don't note anything about the entire class changing. Today even the lowest cast things nothing about having an entire encyclopedia in their pocket (a smart phone), 40 years ago encyclopedias were something you needed to be middle class to have one in your house, and nobody could have them in a pocket (meaning you both could afford one, and the space to store it at home) Go…

I can't help but read this as a kind of "let them eat cake" argument. Sure, some cars have electric starters now... how does that matter? Plenty of poor, working class people do not own cars. They're getting priced out of the cities they've lived in their whole lives. Working class wages have been stagnant for decades. Healthcare and education costs have risen much faster than inflation. A huge percentage of American…

Their standard of living is going up.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me the data that supports this claim. Big claim, zero citations. As an American I've never met anyone who thinks wealth reflects "wealth of the soul." In my experience people here are Christian, in which case there's that verse about heaven and wealth and the eye of the needle (Google it) or they're atheist and don't believe in souls.

The myth of rugged individualism is embedded in Western society. Be thankful you live in a position of such privilege to be unaware. I highly recommend you find paths for empathy in your own life. If you're young, the hubris is unavoidable and disregard this comment. There are many places you can start your research, but maybe looking into how we leverage shame and stigma is a good start: https://www.euro.who.int/en/…

Have you started your research? Because you seem to pin ignorance on OP due to various failings (youth, privilege, lack of empathy) while assuming your own position is ultimately correct.

I would assume you (and anyone else) are better placed to describe your own virtues (to support your correctness), than some strangers vices (to support their incorrectness).

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#515
post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> on average a 4 year degree doubles your income vs anything less The data suggests that people who hold a 4-year degree have X ratio of income. That's two things: the people and the degree, not just the degree. From a previous study, a related (but inexact) surprising outcome emerged: After adjusting for applicant scholastic aptitude, the additional benefit from attending an elite school is “generally indistinguisha…

> That's two things: the people and the degree, not just the degree. Yes, true, it’s a valid point, but there’s really no debate over whether getting the degree is causal. And side note, the Fed’s data is for all Americans, not just a suggestive sample. The line between holding a degree and not is surprisingly clear. All the debate is over what the cause actually is. Specifically, to what degree the content of the ed…

> there’s really no debate over whether getting the degree is causal

Is there no debate in the sense of "this is completely settled science that getting a degree causes a doubling of income on an aptitude-independent, statistically-sound, population-wide basis"? Or "it's not being debated because that debate is uncomfortable"? Or in some other sense of that phrase?

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#516
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side there are plenty of examples of kids being pushed into higher education who would have been much better off going to a trade school. Working as a plumber, an electrician, or a carpenter can be quite lucrative, and they are certainly things that society needs. Being pushed into higher ed is so much different than having an internal drive to do it. I'm glad that she's doing well and hopefully they can…

> Working as a plumber, an electrician, or a carpenter can be quite lucrative This narrative about wealthy trades people like plumbers and welders is not well supported by any data. The ones who do well are the ones who start businesses and hire people, so they become business owners, but most trades people don’t end up there and they obviously can’t all do it. You should know that the U.S. Fed (St. Louis) published…

I think using the average wages is a bit unhelpful for an individual debating between going to college and going to a trade school. They should just compare the specific career paths they’re interested in. And not just wages, job availability is also crucially important. The earnings potential of a vocational school may not have a huge high end, but there are more than a couple college degrees programs with very little job prospects.

By all means, education is great, and people should seek knowledge even when it isn’t profitable. But let’s stop telling white lies to high school seniors about the disconnect between the goals of academics and the realities of the job market.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#517
post #37

Working hard but doing so for someone else can often not lead to significant gains. Many services like Uber or InstaCart or even McDonalds or Amazon Warehouse or Walmart or Retail Sales or call center, you can work hard but there is no where to progress to. Your rewards are capped. You need to find a way to work hard such that your rewards are not capped artificially. Startups were you get equity. Large companies whe…

I'd argue that moving from a capped track to an uncapped track requires much more than hard work. It requires at the very least an expensive investment, sometimes expensive credentials. Worst case, you need to be of a certain class to do it, and not even money can buy you the uncapped track.

If you're flipping burgers at McDonalds, you can't just "hard-work" your way to owning that store. Even if you pull 3 shifts and are the best burger flipper in the state, your boss is never going to say "thanks for the hard work! you now you own the store." This track switch is gate-kept by requiring a capital investment.

If you're 3rd junior engineer from the left at your tech company, you can hard-work your way up to senior, maybe even principal engineer, but you will statistically never be able to hard-work your way to CEO, where the rewards are truly uncapped. Nobody hard-works their way to CEO anymore--that track is reserved for a separate non-employee CEO class, gate-kept by credentials, and the good ol' boy network.

If you're working as a start-up employee, you're never going to hard-work you way to founder, where the rewards are uncapped. You think you're going to be the best developer on the team, and then the board is going to say "congratulations! we now deem you a founder with founder equity!" No way. The company already has founders. If you want to be a founder, you need to make a capital outlay and risk your own business.

If you're a nurse, you're never going to hard-work your way to being a doctor. They don't promote nurses to doctors after years of hard work. You need to, again, spend money on education and pass the credential gatekeepers in order to switch to that track. And even when you're a doctor, you're working for the hospital, and are not uncapped. You can't hard-work your way to owning the hospital. You need to spend capital to own your own practice.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having grown up around it, I can tell you that, if you had to pick one, a parents attitude has a much bigger impact on success in school than food insecurity. That isnt to say that we cant or shouldnt do more about food insecurity, but wrt the GP post, it isnt the biggest factor.

Right, perhaps I wasn't 100% clear. My point was that obesity does not mean that a person is well fed, and that if a parent had to choose between eating and education, eating will win. The parent's attitude is absolutely a factor which was what my original message (up a bit from here) was about, but I don't think that you can deny that food insecurity plays a part in their attitude toward education.

Honestly, I don't think that from what I have seen it is an either / or situation at all.

It is stressful, which doesn't help, bit there are many stressful situations across all walks of life which can be stressful for extended periods of time.

Basically, I think we are agreed it is a problem worth addressing. I don't think we agree that addressing food insecurity will necessarily translate into better attitudes towards doing well in school.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me the data that supports this claim. Big claim, zero citations. As an American I've never met anyone who thinks wealth reflects "wealth of the soul." In my experience people here are Christian, in which case there's that verse about heaven and wealth and the eye of the needle (Google it) or they're atheist and don't believe in souls.

> I've never met anyone who thinks wealth reflects "wealth of the soul." I've never met one either, but I've definitely met plenty of people who think the opposite: if you had any advantages of any kind over anybody else, your accomplishments don't "count". The only people who can actually be proud of what they've achieved and deserve what they have are people who were thrown away in a dumpster at birth, grew up in a…

Maybe those born into positions of wealth believe the former, and those not believe in the latter - Hence each believing whatever benefits their ego.

Maybe not hearing of the former opinion is due to its unpopularity - there are more people not born into wealth after all; This means you are less likely to meet a wealthy person (or be a wealthy person if this increases likelihood of meeting one), and if you did, they would be less likely to tell you of their perspective.

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