Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life • Hacker News Board

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#121

Post by faitswulff » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

paulluuk wrote: post #98

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

I don't really know the stats, but I'm curious if this is true. Yes, GDP has been going up for a long time in many countries, and so the "average wealth" of each generation is going up. However, is the same true for purchasing power? Sometimes you hear about these mythical stories of janitors who could afford to actually buy a house, despite having two children and their partners being stay-at-home moms. And yet toda…

The Wall Street Journal has a great infographic here comparing how many hours of worth it would take to pay median rent today versus in 1968: https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-much-does-the-federal-minim...

Spoiler: it’s not pretty.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#122

Post by Frost1x » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

yathern wrote: post #46

hawk_ wrote: post #4

There was a short window of time (anthropological scale) in the western world where this was seemingly true. The American conservative propaganda latched onto it and tricked people into thinking it was true. The fact is whenever quick upward mobility has been possible anywhere for a large number of people, it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour. It was someone else's hard work that w…

> has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour As far as I understand, this is actually a myth - at least the first two. It's a common cynical refrain that the current level of abundance would be impossible without slavery. There are many many places where there has been slavery throughout the years, and they have not ended up richer for it. The American South, where slavery was more prevalen…

On the point of slavery, it's possible for a bunch of free exploited labor is a requirement to build the levels of wealth we see now. There's probably also another requirement factor on how you utilize those resources.

I'm not convinced that citing economies in decline with historic abuse of slavery is evidence that it isn't a requirement to some of the degrees of wealth we see now. If an entire economy was based around an assumption was that a bunch of free exploited labor like slavery would exist indefinitely then it disappeared over night and no transition strategy existed for that economy or that economy was further tied to slavery... then it's completely possible to see economic decline. Meanwhile, one could have seen the writing on the wall that slavery was gone and moved their resources accumulated off the back of slavery elsewhere and been more successful.

Colonialism is a lot more complicated because there are more inherent costs that could offset the benefits from an economic perspective so its pretty difficult to measure. Slavery is pretty much a guaranteed 'win' from a business perspective, after all, automation of processes with cheap reliable machines is most businesses current wet dream. I'm not saying slavery is a 'good' thing (it's absolutely not), I'm just saying a bunch of cheap ways to create services/goods you can then sell or accumulate seem like a clear way to accumulate/capture wealth. Slavery was one such mechanism abused in the past (and even today, really).

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#123

Post by frockington1 » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

paulluuk wrote: post #98

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

I don't really know the stats, but I'm curious if this is true. Yes, GDP has been going up for a long time in many countries, and so the "average wealth" of each generation is going up. However, is the same true for purchasing power? Sometimes you hear about these mythical stories of janitors who could afford to actually buy a house, despite having two children and their partners being stay-at-home moms. And yet toda…

30 year olds with masters degrees who are still living with their parents? There must be additional information because this is just crazy. In 'flyover' country you don't see this. I'm assuming this is California or NY?

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#124

Post by sethammons » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

frockington1 wrote: post #108

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

I think this fits parents expectations as well. If you raise your children well, they will have a better life than you did. If you don't, your child is hitting the reset button on their branch of the family tree

If you raise your children well, it loads the dice for them having a better life than you did, but doesn’t guarantee it.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#125

Post by jfrunyon » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #69

wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

> You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments.

Sure, maybe if your parents are affected by one of those factors.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#126

Post by jbluepolarbear » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

I grew up in poverty and never expected that I’d do anything in life because of learning disabilities and poor home life. Except I happen to have been born with a gift of an excellent memory. I’m may be slow to learn completely new stuff, but I will never forget it and I can immediately start incorporating new skills into existing skills. I work hard because it’s shown that little by little my life improves.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#127

Post by afpx » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #93

wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Do you honestly believe this? What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother? What impact do you think teaching nihilism has on children? I don't believe its true, but even if it were, it's not a useful model for life.

Why would it be nihilism? A person's purpose in life doesn't have to be tied to working hard (especially if that strategy has diminishing returns).

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#128

Post by datapls » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

52-6F-62 wrote: post #105

fullstop wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starting conditions help tremendously, and I'm not doubting that in the least. One other thing which helps, significantly, is how much the parents value education. Most of the people I know who grew up very poor but now have money had parents that valued education, and pushed their kids to learn. They didn't have shelves of books at home, but they did visit the library weekly. It has to be extremely difficult to focu…

What you’re not counting, and what most people miss, is that not only are you at a disadvantage due to lack of resources, but there are many people in positions of authority, power, or just plain tenure who believe that accumulated wealth is a reflection of the wealth of soul. If you are below them in birth, and didn’t chance yourself to some higher strata by the time they grace your presence, they tend to believe yo…

Show me the data that supports this claim. Big claim, zero citations. As an American I've never met anyone who thinks wealth reflects "wealth of the soul."

In my experience people here are Christian, in which case there's that verse about heaven and wealth and the eye of the needle (Google it) or they're atheist and don't believe in souls.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#129

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

altacc wrote: post #52

cousin_it wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact is whenever quick upward mobility has been possible anywhere for a large number of people, it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour. Which of these was responsible for China's rise from poverty?

All of them. It's certainly true that there are other important factors and I don't think the parent poster's list is exhaustive, but these are crucial factors in China's current rise. Slavery: we know there are factories inside their "reeducation camps" Colonialism: Internally, Han Chinese are encouraged to migrate & take over areas of the country where other ethnics groups have traditionally been the majority. Abro…

[deleted]

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#130

Post by jfrunyon » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #100

9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that social mobility implies being able to climb the ladder from destitute to poor, poor to modestly wealthy, etc. and not referring to jumping to the 1% from destitution.

Exactly. And everyone seems to think that the fact that all the billionaires came from a situation of decent familial wealth enabling them to make big bets refutes the fact that most people who don't screw up too bad end their career much better than they started and that most people's kids manage to start a rung up or so. Plumber sends his kids to community college and all that.

Why does the millionaire's kid deserve a better shot at success than the plumber's kid?