Live data from Hacker News

Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

insidermag.net

91–100 of 715 posts

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#91

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Starting conditions help tremendously, and I'm not doubting that in the least. One other thing which helps, significantly, is how much the parents value education. Most of the people I know who grew up very poor but now have money had parents that valued education, and pushed their kids to learn. They didn't have shelves of books at home, but they did visit the library weekly.

It has to be extremely difficult to focus on school and education when you don't know when your next meal is going to be. It's why I find news articles about lunch aids being fired for giving a kid lunch when they have no money so infuriating, and food insecurity is an enormous problem that is likely happening in your neighborhood today, and it's often overlooked. It's not easy to move upward especially when your choice is between "Do I improve myself by working hard or do I eat?"

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#92
post #43

I can’t think of any way to improve your lot in life without working hard. Unless you inherit money or win the lottery, no one is going to hand you a better life. We have a safety net for the disabled. If you are able-bodied and refuse to work hard yet still complain that life gave you a raw deal, I don’t have any sympathy for you. Everyone I know who is very successful (outside of FAANG employees who seemingly coast…

Another way might be a life of crime. But to be a successful criminal, I think, requires some hard work, too.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#93

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Do you honestly believe this? What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother?

What impact do you think teaching nihilism has on children? I don't believe its true, but even if it were, it's not a useful model for life.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#94

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

society is an extremely thick swamp

hard work is only one small ingredient

I'm a hard worker, I love it.. if the task suits me, i won't leave.. why did I fail ? people are jealous of your performance (inferiority), feel guilty of not being fast enough, are afraid of being thrown out because of you, and more and more politics (faster performance will be exploited by managers to pressure others in sad ways so people assemble/unionize and will restrict performance as leverage).

Unless you value yourself enough, society will drag you down to its level

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#95
I think there are a few factors unique in U.S. history that would naturally lead its people to believe that hard work alone is sufficient.

Firstly, I think times of change are the catalyst needed for mobility (up and down). Just like in organizations: fast growing companies are where many employees first get elevated to, say, the CTO or Director level, and which they can then maintain from company to company. They worked hard, sure, but not harder than anyone else. It was that disruption in the status quo that gave them the opportunity in the shifting sands to find elevated ground.

I think the other factor is points of leverage. A sibling comment points out slavery, colonialism, cheap labor. Those are general points of leverage, but there are others (and possibly not the most important ones for the U.S.)

So the first great change in my mind was just the establishment of the U.S. For decades we pushed west "discovering"/stealing new territories and its natural resources. This led to mobility for some, but the leverage is small (still need lots of people to work your massive land stake in Kansas). Still, those resources were sent back to Boston or wherever and led to many opportunities.

Second, the Industrial Revolution. Now you're getting into great leverage possibilities. Vanderbilt was an ace accountant, but what other time in history could somebody good with a ledger rise to the richest man in the world? Vanderbilt was an exception, no doubt, but there were plenty of people who had accounting skills who significantly improved their station in life (and hence their subsequent generations).

Next was WW2. With Europe ravaged by war, the U.S. naturally was able to rise and fill various roles previously filled by the British and others. (Maybe the most important one here is reserve currency status.) This created ridiculous opportunity for its citizens to make a name for themselves. This is the wave many boomers rode to their current levels of wealth.

Lastly is the computer revolution. The wealth from this one has probably been more concentrated, but the leverage possible has improved the station of many many people (myself included).

So I think hard-work (or related things like "savviness") is necessary, but not sufficient. Maybe now people are just coming to terms with a world / country that is mostly settled, and without that disruption, the chances of moving up in life are greatly diminished back to where they've been for most of human history.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#96

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

IMO there's a deception that we are doing better, but its more like the whole of society is doing better. I have a nice car not because Im doing better than my parents, but because technology has improved.

Real social mobility is very very very very hard if you dont have any special skills.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#97

Every morning, I get up at 5, and go for a two-mile walk. Often, my walk coincides with the route of the garbage collection truck. Man, those dudes work hard . It makes my shoulders ache, just watching them. They are fast, energetic, efficient, and precise. Around here, they are generally Latinos, and they have quite high-paying jobs, compared to a lot of their peers. It's a dirty, dangerous job, and the benefits are…

I respect them too. Here in the UK I always try to say good morning and thanks to our bin collectors.

Do you know how many hours do they do? Is it the fact that when their route is complete they are finished for the day? Because then there is a pretty good incentive to work hard and fast.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#98

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

I don't really know the stats, but I'm curious if this is true. Yes, GDP has been going up for a long time in many countries, and so the "average wealth" of each generation is going up.

However, is the same true for purchasing power?

Sometimes you hear about these mythical stories of janitors who could afford to actually buy a house, despite having two children and their partners being stay-at-home moms.

And yet today, I hear so many stories about 30 year olds with masters degrees who are still living with their parents because they can't afford to rent a studio.

Like I said, and I can't find good stats on this online. If you have any stats on which you based your comment, I'd love to see them!

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#99

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

You're right. If you're lucky enough to be born in the US, you're going to have a better life than 90% of people in the world and 90% of people who have ever existed.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

My understanding is that social mobility implies being able to climb the ladder from destitute to poor, poor to modestly wealthy, etc. and not referring to jumping to the 1% from destitution.

Exactly.

And everyone seems to think that the fact that all the billionaires came from a situation of decent familial wealth enabling them to make big bets refutes the fact that most people who don't screw up too bad end their career much better than they started and that most people's kids manage to start a rung up or so. Plumber sends his kids to community college and all that.

Post reply on HN