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Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

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Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#101

Post by nightski »

wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Maybe starting conditions are heavily predictive. Does it matter that much? The fact is mobility has never been more available. The problem is the "work hard" narrative. It's about working smart, not hard (that is a boomer mentality).

I think the real reason people struggle is because they just don't know how to take advantage of the opportunity available. It used to be easy - get some basic knowledge and find a hard working 9-5. Now that isn't the best path and while there is a lot more opportunity it is more open ended and one needs to find their own way.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#102

Post by karencarits »

wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Well, it depends. This short tedxoslo had some nice points ("Where in the world is it easiest to get rich?" Hint: not the US): https://youtu.be/A9UmdY0E8hU

He's talking about social mobility from 8:30

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#103

Post by nexus_dave »

wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

In 2019, immigrant entrepreneurs made up 21.7 percent of all business owners in the United States, despite making up just over 13.6 percent of the population and 17.1 percent of the U.S. labor force. As an immigrant I can assure you that my starting position was not that great. It is super sad to see the west being turned into an epicurean type world.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#104

Post by js8 »

hawk_ wrote: post #4

There was a short window of time (anthropological scale) in the western world where this was seemingly true. The American conservative propaganda latched onto it and tricked people into thinking it was true. The fact is whenever quick upward mobility has been possible anywhere for a large number of people, it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour. It was someone else's hard work that w…

I don't think it's quite true, as other people have stated, industrialization (for example in China) indeed helped almost everybody, not just the subset of the wealthy or middle class people.

I think it comes down to this: Upward mobility is a little misleading term, because you can increase it not only by exploiting more slaves (as you seem to think), but also by reducing class inequality itself. As inequality gets smaller, the distance to travel (in terms of social mobility) decreases, and more people can cross classes.

And I would argue, what the West managed to do in the period of circa 1930-1970, was indeed a massive reduction in social inequality. This happened not by chance, but was a result of many years of struggle for social democracy, starting from the French revolution (rejection of nobility as a concept), and continuing in pursuing socialist ideas in the late 19th century, and rise of the unions in the workplace.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#105

Post by 52-6F-62 »

fullstop wrote: post #91
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Starting conditions help tremendously, and I'm not doubting that in the least. One other thing which helps, significantly, is how much the parents value education. Most of the people I know who grew up very poor but now have money had parents that valued education, and pushed their kids to learn. They didn't have shelves of books at home, but they did visit the library weekly. It has to be extremely difficult to focu…

What you’re not counting, and what most people miss, is that not only are you at a disadvantage due to lack of resources, but there are many people in positions of authority, power, or just plain tenure who believe that accumulated wealth is a reflection of the wealth of soul. If you are below them in birth, and didn’t chance yourself to some higher strata by the time they grace your presence, they tend to believe you belong there and treat you as such. Even in the great meritocracies of North America.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#106

Post by fullstop »

hawk_ wrote: post #4

There was a short window of time (anthropological scale) in the western world where this was seemingly true. The American conservative propaganda latched onto it and tricked people into thinking it was true. The fact is whenever quick upward mobility has been possible anywhere for a large number of people, it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour. It was someone else's hard work that w…

> it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour

I sometimes wonder about some of the components we use which are sourced from China. Do they have efficient foundries or am I invisibly benefiting from cheap slave labor? There's such a disconnect between clicking "buy" and it arriving.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#108

Post by frockington1 »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #69
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

I think this fits parents expectations as well. If you raise your children well, they will have a better life than you did. If you don't, your child is hitting the reset button on their branch of the family tree

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#109

Post by sethammons »

JohnWhigham wrote: post #18

So we have this sentiment, how long will it take to be reflected in business schools, those leading these companies? We need at least boomers and Gen Xers to die off since they were instilled with the old way of go-into-the-place-and-give-a-firm-handshake bullshit. Are we looking at potentially decades before we seriously start making tangible changes with our relationships with work?

I’m not following. What does this have to do with a global population who thinks their five-year prospects are not so hot? That is what the article is about after all.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#110

Post by kulig »

bko wrote: post #93
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Do you honestly believe this? What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother? What impact do you think teaching nihilism has on children? I don't believe its true, but even if it were, it's not a useful model for life.

That's exagerated.

I would tell them "dont get fooled by tales of money. Take care of your body, your relationships, because thats where your wealth is. "

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