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Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

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Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#351

Post by BatteryMountain »

xvector wrote: post #3

Can’t imagine not having at least partial WFH after this pandemic. If my office doesn’t let me WFH, I will also be leaving. A good portion of my team is similarly minded, but management is insistent on disallowing WFH. I can’t wait to see their faces when the company bleeds massive swaths of engineering talent. It’s about damn time that companies realized that they ought to treat their employees like the adults that…

I think asking employees to come in, say once a month is a pretty cool balance. So on that day that everyone comes together, rather make it a social thing and not a sit and work day. Have a friendly townhall and focus on cohesion & empathy. Ask them what they need, if their home circumstances can be improved etc.

They can have a much smaller office space (can be fancier since it is smaller) for people to meet if they really need to (specifically client facing), then there are internet & coffee & snacks, desks & couches available. 90% staff don't have to go to the office to be honest.

And the rest of the money being saved on having smaller offices can be funneled to employee bonuses/benefits or gear (better desks/chairs if you are chair-bound) (more frequent upgrades or let the employee choose what gear they want (within reason)), (at work I have 1x 24" 1080p screen, at home I have 2x 27" 1440p but I bought it with my own money... (which is the ultimate size and density for programming for me)), (decent webcam & dedicated microphone and good headphones), paid for tooling (like gitkraken/jetbrains/pluralsight subscriptions). Stuff like that will make a huge difference.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#352

Post by doctor_eval »

fergie wrote: post #280
doctor_eval wrote: post #245

Managers are getting a pretty bad rap in these threads, and maybe (or maybe not) in BigCo’s that’s reasonable, but I run a tiny shop and I’ve asked my team to come to the office as often as possible, despite the fact that half of us have been working together for years - and we get on just fine online. The reason is that the other half of the team haven’t got this experience; they are young and relatively inexperienc…

"I guess my company is going to attract people who prefer this mode of operation, and I know other companies are WFH first" It will be interesting to see if discouraging WFH can actually be an advantage when it comes to recruitment and retention, but when all of the main players in tech are embracing WFH, its hard to see how smaller players can sell "no WFH" as a benefit.

Is this statement true, that all the main players in tech are WFH first? Didn't Apple just announce 3 days WFO are mandatory?

But in any case, I'm no FAANG, and I was just trying to explain the motivation for my preference that people WFO where possible. I wouldn't say I see it as a competitive recruitment advantage, but I'm yet to be convinced it's a disadvantage either.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#353

Post by doctor_eval »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #329
doctor_eval wrote: post #245

Managers are getting a pretty bad rap in these threads, and maybe (or maybe not) in BigCo’s that’s reasonable, but I run a tiny shop and I’ve asked my team to come to the office as often as possible, despite the fact that half of us have been working together for years - and we get on just fine online. The reason is that the other half of the team haven’t got this experience; they are young and relatively inexperienc…

Have you actually asked your team if they feel the same way, though? (and I mean actually asked, not just "hey bud, you're happy with coming into the office, right?") I used to whiteboard out problems with the whole team. I loved it. We had a couple of star employees who were really good at coming up with ideas and sketching them out. Being able to get the whole team on-side for a problem and understanding the answer…

I'm not going to say you're wrong, but you are making assumptions that don't necessary apply to me.

I don't generally do huge whiteboarding sessions with the whole team. Typically I write detailed technical documentation about what I'm trying to achieve, and how I think it should be done, which I share with the team who are implementing it.

It's typically only when they don't understand something that I jump on the whiteboard. And it's typically the more junior people that don't understand things.

It's not that I love huge, didactic whiteboarding sessions; I don't. What I do enjoy is explaining ideas in small whiteboard sessions with just one or two other people, or with small teams who have specific questions, and I feel that these sessions are much more productive in person than they are remotely.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#354

Post by Raed667 »

hutzlibu wrote: post #311
LAC-Tech wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With the "everyone remote" of 2020, one of the things that spooked a lot of companies is the employees adding to additional complications by living in states (or sometimes countries) that have different labor laws, taxes, and such without telling the company. I've side-stepped this issue by being self-employed. Then it becomes as simple as - you keep paying me and I keep working.

Well, I don't know how this works in the US, but in germany when you are self-employed, but basically only work for one company - it would be declared a fake selfemployed situation, with lots of legal and tax complications, basically forcing the company to employ you regulary. (to counter companies pushing their workers to be self employed, to avoid taxes, healthcare costs, etc. But I am not convinced if the result i…

In France as well. Also if you're a contractor you can't be working for the same company/role more than 3 years for the same reason.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#355

Post by doctor_eval »

pdimitar wrote: post #341
katbyte wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone on my team is different from goals to what makes them happy to how they work, cant expect them all to work the same and management is figuring out what’s best for each one

That's too wide a generalization. I believe your parent poster simply outlined the two polar opposites and that if somebody doesn't thrive in an environment where ideas are "bounced back and forth" then you shouldn't mandate them attending such sessions. Nothing else.

If they don't thrive in that environment, maybe they are in the wrong environment?

Is it important that the org bends to the will of a subset of workers with specific preferences, or is it important that we get a group of people who are going to get the work done?

I suppose I'm firmly in the latter group. I have goals that I need to achieve; I need a crew that can achieve them; and whoever I pick necessarily has to be aligned with the way that I work, because it's on me - and only on me - if I fail.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#356

Post by LAC-Tech »

hutzlibu wrote: post #311
LAC-Tech wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With the "everyone remote" of 2020, one of the things that spooked a lot of companies is the employees adding to additional complications by living in states (or sometimes countries) that have different labor laws, taxes, and such without telling the company. I've side-stepped this issue by being self-employed. Then it becomes as simple as - you keep paying me and I keep working.

Well, I don't know how this works in the US, but in germany when you are self-employed, but basically only work for one company - it would be declared a fake selfemployed situation, with lots of legal and tax complications, basically forcing the company to employ you regulary. (to counter companies pushing their workers to be self employed, to avoid taxes, healthcare costs, etc. But I am not convinced if the result i…

Not sure how it works in the US either. I'm in NZ and it works similarly to how you described it working in DE.

Though my clients in another country, I don't want to push it, they don't want to push it - so I don't care. Eventually I will jack up my rates and they will either sign me again or I'll find somewhere else.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#357

Post by ddingus »

dheera wrote: post #116
cyberlurker wrote: post #6

I actually don’t mind one way or the other, but I just want a clear rationale for over riding the employees preference. I despise the water cooler theory because I’m perfectly capable of socializing over voip or IM. I do it at work and then shortly afterwards with friends on discord. The real reasons for return to office should be tangible. If you have metrics that people are taking advantage, share them. The only th…

It's also worth noting that there's a huge bias toward pure software engineers on HN. I do software, but I have to work with some large industrial hardware and it's so much easier to just have the hardware in front of you. Especially when you have to from time to time set up hardware that isn't even on the network yet. Telepresence just isn't there yet, and the quality of internet connections and videoconference tool…

I do a mix of software, smaller scale hardware, larger hardware, and am spooling up manufacturing.

So, right now I am in a lot, but no longer have an office. That is at home now, including enough gear to work on the small scale hardware.

If I come in, you can find me in the shop. My senior firmware engineer and I work best together, but work very well remote too.

So, I am going to move a machine here. We normally get together for a few days and will now just do it more regularly.

I am the better tech anyway, and do enough software to make me a good working extension. We expect this to be a net gain.

As that manufacturing spools up, I will WFH, only coming in when doing R&D, or to improve on or resolve manufacturing problems.

Pre-pandemic, I traveled everywhere, hated it. That is gone now.

Outside of software and other info heavy roles, having flexibility will be seen as a great thing.

As we optimize the diverse tasks, we will work better, and have many options. One of my favorites is to get up at oh dark 30, work in the shop when there are no distractions and head home after lunch. Those are the days when I get the most physical work done, and or solve the worst problems.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#358

Post by theshrike79 »

Raed667 wrote: post #14
strgrd wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hybrid model is such a joke. For most, working in the office might as well be the 21st century business suit: an antiquated formality designed to demonstrate your obedience to authority. The hybrid model is a suit on a t-shirt. And forcing employees to be in the office X days a week means productivity on those WFH days will be nonexistent, especially if they butt against a weekend. But of course while the WFH lif…

I'm struggling with the idea of hybrid WFH. It still means that I need to live near the office. Instead of a cheaper, quieter place far away from cities. Besides making middle-management happy, I'm not sure what is the benefit of having one required day per week at the office.

Depends on the hybrid model.

If it's "3 days every week at the office", then you need to live close by.

If it's "two days every month", you can just stay at a hotel for that time with the money you saved from commuting - maybe even bring the whole family =)

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#359

Post by ddingus »

benrbray wrote: post #199
dimmke wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am reasonably productive WFH (I was 2 days a week remote before pandemic and have had fully remote jobs in the past)- but the way some people talk about it really bothers me. The people that want it, really want it, are almost like zealots about it. Where if anybody mentions that they struggle with WFH, they get mad almost like it's a kid raising his hand to tell a teacher they forgot to collect the homework. And I…

I really like your point about losing our "second place". It's a great way to verbalize the feeling I've had that permanent WFH on a major scale takes American individualism to the logical extreme. Rather than learning to live with each other, we'll all just retreat to our own little castles (or shacks), taking all focus away from making public spaces enjoyable for everyone. Who needs public transit when we never lea…

Lucid take!

I am glad I do a mix of things. Some are great to WFH, others like hardware dev, R&D benefit from being around machines and often people too.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#360

Post by ddingus »

dsyrk wrote: post #85
xvector wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s ridiculous, and only proves my point that management is obsessed with meaningless metrics and what employees do with their free time rather than whether they’re completing their assigned duties or not.

I feel very empowered by WFH as a manager. I get gamed much less by the developers I manage. For instance I assign a duty or task as you mention, and I can now clearly see if anytime was spent on it or not. So during my progress reviews if a developer says he is still working on it, been a bit more complex than he expected, yet I can clear see when he was active on the system, and due to proprietary nature of our sof…

>Instead I just focus on the technical issues on their task, sometimes I just do it for them, to humiliate them.

Well, that is one hell of a viscous cycle, isn't it?

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