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Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

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Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#311

Post by hutzlibu »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #268
shagie wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the "everyone remote" of 2020, one of the things that spooked a lot of companies is the employees adding to additional complications by living in states (or sometimes countries) that have different labor laws, taxes, and such without telling the company. This resulted in things where they suddenly found out that they need to pay taxes in four states (and Canada - unless they get that employee to leave within 3 w…

> With the "everyone remote" of 2020, one of the things that spooked a lot of companies is the employees adding to additional complications by living in states (or sometimes countries) that have different labor laws, taxes, and such without telling the company. I've side-stepped this issue by being self-employed. Then it becomes as simple as - you keep paying me and I keep working.

Well, I don't know how this works in the US, but in germany when you are self-employed, but basically only work for one company - it would be declared a fake selfemployed situation, with lots of legal and tax complications, basically forcing the company to employ you regulary.

(to counter companies pushing their workers to be self employed, to avoid taxes, healthcare costs, etc. But I am not convinced if the result is beneficial to the workers)

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#312

Post by hutzlibu »

irrational wrote: post #117
marcinzm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found that it's much harder to form social bonds, especially cross-team, when working remotely and never seeing people in person. Socializing via Zoom is not the same. The lack of lunch and hallway conversation hurts a lot without even getting into the outside of work socializing. That in turn leads to minor issues exploding because no one has a sense of empathy built for anyone else.

I’ve worked at the same company for nearly 20 years. I’ve had precisely 0 lunch and hallway conversations in all of those years. Lunch time is when I go work out. If I’m not working out, I’m sitting at my my desk working. Socializing is for non-work hours. However, I’ve learned a lot more about coworkers (some of whom I’ve worked with for more than 10 years) during the pandemic from talking at the beginning of zoom c…

So ... since you only worked or worked out ... when did you actually eat?

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#313

Post by Raed667 »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #150
Raed667 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm struggling with the idea of hybrid WFH. It still means that I need to live near the office. Instead of a cheaper, quieter place far away from cities. Besides making middle-management happy, I'm not sure what is the benefit of having one required day per week at the office.

I find in person meetings more effective. I’d rather meet once a week or 2 and get all the big meetings done then go away to code, than have Zoom meetings every single day. I predict that in all the full time WFH companies, some small group will start having in person meets once every X. Or some other startup will innovate past an incumbent by having a hybrid model. Then hybrid will be the next “new” thing.

I don't have that option. The number and length of meetings is the same if I'm WFH or in the office.

Since we're doing SCRUM, their spacing is also the same: sprint review, retrospective, splaning, refinement, ideation, etc..

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#314

Post by jjav »

xvector wrote: post #3

Can’t imagine not having at least partial WFH after this pandemic. If my office doesn’t let me WFH, I will also be leaving. A good portion of my team is similarly minded, but management is insistent on disallowing WFH. I can’t wait to see their faces when the company bleeds massive swaths of engineering talent. It’s about damn time that companies realized that they ought to treat their employees like the adults that…

> If my office doesn’t let me WFH, I will also be leaving.

Agreed. I hope to never work in an office again. It's a horrible concept.

I was ok with office work during the first 15+ years of my career when I had a private office. That works very well. Commute was annoying, but I'll take it.

But then came the cubicles. Ugh. Then came the open office nightmare. I will never be in an open office again. Not an option, full stop.

You want my expertise? The options are remote or private office.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#315

Post by jjav »

Raed667 wrote: post #14
strgrd wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hybrid model is such a joke. For most, working in the office might as well be the 21st century business suit: an antiquated formality designed to demonstrate your obedience to authority. The hybrid model is a suit on a t-shirt. And forcing employees to be in the office X days a week means productivity on those WFH days will be nonexistent, especially if they butt against a weekend. But of course while the WFH lif…

I'm struggling with the idea of hybrid WFH. It still means that I need to live near the office. Instead of a cheaper, quieter place far away from cities. Besides making middle-management happy, I'm not sure what is the benefit of having one required day per week at the office.

> I'm struggling with the idea of hybrid WFH.

I'd be ok with up to a max of one day a week in the office.

That doesn't restrict location too much. Only one day a week, I'm willing to put up with a multi-hour commute. Anything more than one day, I don't think so.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#316

Post by austhrow743 »

acituan wrote: post #263
doctor_eval wrote: post #245

Managers are getting a pretty bad rap in these threads, and maybe (or maybe not) in BigCo’s that’s reasonable, but I run a tiny shop and I’ve asked my team to come to the office as often as possible, despite the fact that half of us have been working together for years - and we get on just fine online. The reason is that the other half of the team haven’t got this experience; they are young and relatively inexperienc…

> they are young and relatively inexperienced, and I want them to see how we work, how we solve problems, how their peers communicate and how we think about different aspects of the business. You basically want the seniors' suffer the uncompensated inconveniences of WFO so that the juniors can grow. > This is every bit as important to the professional growth of our juniors as it is to my new business. This is not alt…

Presumably they pay their employees.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#317

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

luffapi wrote: post #180
marcinzm wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have yet to see a non-tiny company that doesn't have political squabbles cross-team and especially cross-department. It's the nature of many groups competing for finite resources and diverging goals. I have however seen many engineers be utterly obvious to the politics going on and getting burned by it in the end.

The politics are greatly reduced when everyone is remote. No “in group” lunches or beers after work… There are entire categories of drama that wfh eliminates.

It doesn't eliminate them, it just hides them from you.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#318

Post by ptr2voidStar »

bsder wrote: post #229
endymi0n wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this a lot of times recently — what I'm interested by now is where the new equilibrium will be going forward. So far us software engineers have often seen jobs as replaceable and we know we'll have another one at the snip of a finger should we quit. But with enough people actually quitting, how many remote or soon-remote companies will there be to scoop up the supply until quitting an office job cold could be…

> So far us software engineers have often seen jobs as replaceable and we know we'll have another one at the snip of a finger should we quit. I think this is going to be the thing that cracks. If everybody is WFH, I probably don't need YOU specifically. Programmers are about to get a big wake up call as to what their value actually is in the global market--and it's a lot less than they think. If I were a particularly…

Turkeys voting for Christmas (t'was ever thus).

That said, this is an unavoidable consequence of globalization that was due to happen anyway.The "pandemic" simply accelerated it.

A big section of the conceptual "West" is in for a very rude awakening.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#319

Post by voxl »

doctor_eval wrote: post #245

Managers are getting a pretty bad rap in these threads, and maybe (or maybe not) in BigCo’s that’s reasonable, but I run a tiny shop and I’ve asked my team to come to the office as often as possible, despite the fact that half of us have been working together for years - and we get on just fine online. The reason is that the other half of the team haven’t got this experience; they are young and relatively inexperienc…

> I have no problem with WFH in principle, but my position is, if you are able to come in, then come in. If you have kids or other commitments then fine, work from home a couple of days a week. But by default, it’s better for everyone if you’re in the office.

Lets hope to god there is a large enough demand for WFH that your position becomes intolerable for more companies. I think having access to on office as an option is great, but thinking its "better" is a unfounded claim.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#320

Post by mech422 »

marcinzm wrote: post #39
brabel wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good for you. Just don't be surprised if you're the only one at the office when you get there, though. You might need to find human interaction outside work.

Being the only one talking to the VPs and CEO in the office during lunch is probably going to be a great career boost. So don't be surprised when the people who go into the office get the nice promotions and you don't. Interestingly my whole team is very much in favor of being in the office a few days a week.

I know your comment was tongue-in-cheek, but some seem to believe this.

From what I've seen, its a losing game. You can kiss all the ass you want, socialize whatever. But when there is an opening in companies like that, it seems like the boss's son-in-law/college crony/etc. always gets the job..

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