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Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

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Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#341

Post by pdimitar »

katbyte wrote: post #332
marcus_holmes wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you actually asked your team if they feel the same way, though? (and I mean actually asked, not just "hey bud, you're happy with coming into the office, right?") I used to whiteboard out problems with the whole team. I loved it. We had a couple of star employees who were really good at coming up with ideas and sketching them out. Being able to get the whole team on-side for a problem and understanding the answer…

Everyone on my team is different from goals to what makes them happy to how they work, cant expect them all to work the same and management is figuring out what’s best for each one

That's too wide a generalization. I believe your parent poster simply outlined the two polar opposites and that if somebody doesn't thrive in an environment where ideas are "bounced back and forth" then you shouldn't mandate them attending such sessions. Nothing else.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#342

Post by pdimitar »

idkwhoiam wrote: post #273

IMO these people are shooting themselves in the foot long term. If companies learn to WFH full time these people will eventually be replaced with cheaper labour from oversees.

I've seen that happen several times already and I'd say you are usually wrong.

I mean yes, you absolutely can hire much cheaper devs, sure, but I've witnessed the fallout from them not being good at their jobs which then mandated bringing me and several other senior devs onboard so we can fix the mess and get the project back on track.

So can companies utilize the global market and hire cheaper devs? Yes. Is that usually risky? Also yes.

(Exceptions exist of course, e.g. Eastern European devs are usually high quality and are happy with 2X, if not even 3X-4X, less payment than the American ones.)

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#343

Post by Leherenn »

ghaff wrote: post #148
RandallBrown wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a hybrid model where the office is essentially a private coworking space could work pretty well. The company would be run like they're fully remote but there would be an easy place for people to meet up when necessary.

>The company would be run like they're fully remote You sort of have to if some people are in-office and some aren't. For example, and I know a lot of folks don't want to hear this, but it's a good practice that everyone does video calls from their own desk. I also hear of companies looking at reconfigurations of their spaces to be more collaboration-oriented, e.g. more space to conference rooms and enclaves with a l…

> but it's a good practice that everyone does video calls from their own desk.

We do that sometimes, but I find it a bit painful. First you have to be on top of mute/unmute if you're having a conversation with the guy next to you otherwise everyone gets echo. And then, even if you are, if it's the guy next to you talking you hear him "for real" first then through the video call with a slight delay.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#344

Post by doctor_eval »

austhrow743 wrote: post #316
acituan wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are young and relatively inexperienced, and I want them to see how we work, how we solve problems, how their peers communicate and how we think about different aspects of the business. You basically want the seniors' suffer the uncompensated inconveniences of WFO so that the juniors can grow. > This is every bit as important to the professional growth of our juniors as it is to my new business. This is not alt…

Presumably they pay their employees.

Yeah and also “work from office” and “mentor juniors” is in the PD and the contract.

It’s not like we were being underhanded. If they didn’t like it, they wouldn’t have signed on.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#345

Post by doctor_eval »

hycaria wrote: post #337
doctor_eval wrote: post #245

Managers are getting a pretty bad rap in these threads, and maybe (or maybe not) in BigCo’s that’s reasonable, but I run a tiny shop and I’ve asked my team to come to the office as often as possible, despite the fact that half of us have been working together for years - and we get on just fine online. The reason is that the other half of the team haven’t got this experience; they are young and relatively inexperienc…

I am rather junior and recently joined a fully remote team. The culture is so geared towards written documentation that it's honestly not a problem. Every one is extra careful about writing up extra detailed instructions for the youngsters. Also, I'm spending a good chunk of time exploring and researching by myself obviously, but I consider that a perk since one tend to learn better that way.

I dunno man, documentation is way different to what happens in person. I’m sure you’ll learn heaps, but I think what you learn will be qualitatively different from what you’d learn in an office. Maybe not better or worse, but certainly different. Good luck to you though! Welcome to the industry.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#346

Post by doctor_eval »

voxl wrote: post #319
doctor_eval wrote: post #245

Managers are getting a pretty bad rap in these threads, and maybe (or maybe not) in BigCo’s that’s reasonable, but I run a tiny shop and I’ve asked my team to come to the office as often as possible, despite the fact that half of us have been working together for years - and we get on just fine online. The reason is that the other half of the team haven’t got this experience; they are young and relatively inexperienc…

> I have no problem with WFH in principle, but my position is, if you are able to come in, then come in. If you have kids or other commitments then fine, work from home a couple of days a week. But by default, it’s better for everyone if you’re in the office. Lets hope to god there is a large enough demand for WFH that your position becomes intolerable for more companies. I think having access to on office as an opti…

But so is WFH! I’ve literally had a guy beg me to WFO. Surely a better world would have a diversity of options? Or are we one size fits all now? (That size being the one that fits you)

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#347

Post by pdimitar »

seoaeu wrote: post #160
loloquwowndueo wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“ lack of proper division between my home life and work life.” This tells me you’re doing WFH wrong or don’t have enough discipline for it. That’s okay, wfh is not for everyone, but don’t blame this on anyone but yourself. There are tons of ways to have that proper separation, including but not limited to, replacing the transitional commute with a walk to switch contexts. You can find a lot of tips and techniques on…

I'm sorry, but seriously how out of touch do you have to be that 14+ months into the pandemic you still think that people can't have poor WFH experiences for reasons out of their control?

Can you give a few examples of those reasons?

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#348

Post by the_gipsy »

dsyrk wrote: post #191
the_gipsy wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has it ever occurred to you, to measure the actual work?

Of course I do that to and did that before the pandemic. I review all code commits and review reports and results from the system. I also track completed tasks and assign them complexity level. Am I stupid or something? How would I know who is completing tasks or not. This was how we operated before WFH, the change is implementing direct surveillance telemetry on employee activity on the system. Another improvement i…

> Am I stupid or something?

To be blunt, yes, unless you're trolling. Nobody could like you, you'd be the laughingstock of the company. The literal bootlicker too inept to rise and just tries to make others miserable. I say try because I guarantee you nobody gives a shit, they all just cash in the paycheck and wonder why it takes the company so long to fire them.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#349

Post by pdimitar »

dsyrk wrote: post #201
leesalminen wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Why employ people you don’t trust? It sounds very tiring. I certainly don’t have time for it running a successful, fast-growing company. I’ve employed people before who eroded my trust in them. I either fired them or nudged them to find a new job, depending on the severity of the thing they did to make me not trust them.

You must be fairly young and idealistic. It’s really hard to know people well enough to be able to trust them. Especially in this new WFH environment are you going to know your employees after a few skype calls? I’ve been in tech for over 25 years now and a manager for last 15, the level of deceit one comes across is mind blowing. In one case we had an employee we all liked and thought well of, did decent work, extre…

You must be too cynical and jaded then because at 41 y/o with a family and a fair amount of life struggles under my belt I still can't see your point.

With programmers in particular it's painfully obvious if they work or not. You are expending tons of unnecessary (human) energy to maybe scoop 5-10% more productivity. It's not worth it.

There are also a lot of people who work better (and more!) when they feel free.

I mean, you do you of course, but consider that you're only surrounding yourself with one kind of people and are missing out on everybody else -- and no, they are not slackers.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#350

Post by wernercd »

makeitdouble wrote: post #282
wernercd wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social bonds, Office chat, meetings around a table, etc. There are so many things you can't get over a zoom call that not having a hybrid model is what I won't understand. You can have the best of both worlds and if that means that there are some limits on where you can live? I saw someone say that a lot of what makes WFH successful currently are the bonds that we had built while working together... and that as time…

On not wanting the hybrid model, while where you live is an aspect, how you organize is another. For instance it’s a big difference if you can send and take your kids from school yourself 5 days a week or if for one or two days you need to find someone to contract just for that. Same for having one or two cars, needing a laptop or not, etc. There are a lot of big and small effects on having to commute one/two days or…

Absolutely - it's a complicated equation and all things determine. From personality (some love home, some love office) to child care to technology (laptop, internet cost at home, speed) to all what you mentioned and a hundred more points.

I think, personally, most will want hybrid - to get the best of both worlds - and it's simply a matter of finding the right personal and corporate balance (if possible).

We'll see how long term the effects of COVID are. We might see WFH become mainstream... we might see a massive pushback to go back to the Old Normal. I think successful companies will find the middle to keep their talent.

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