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Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

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Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#171

Post by chillel »

gremlinsinc wrote: post #136
marcinzm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found that it's much harder to form social bonds, especially cross-team, when working remotely and never seeing people in person. Socializing via Zoom is not the same. The lack of lunch and hallway conversation hurts a lot without even getting into the outside of work socializing. That in turn leads to minor issues exploding because no one has a sense of empathy built for anyone else.

Why not just do like a 3-4 day retreat to "bond" every 3-4 months? Or even monthly have maybe a 2-3 day mini-retreat work a day or two on-site and do some after-work bonding for those who are staying in hotels, etc... I mean if it's just about bonding. I had pretty good bonding with an agency I worked with and we'd do once a year retreats and it was really nice to hang out with the team, then go back home and hang ou…

because people have families, and parents can't just bounce on their children?

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#172

Post by chillel »

mlang23 wrote: post #63
rmetzler wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would go back to office if my commute was like 20 minutes by bike and I would share a small office with one to three other people on my team. But my commute is 1 hour one way, some people don’t get seats on the train, U-Bahn in Berlin is like a can of sardines during rush hour and the bigger part of my team is in another country and the customer is at the other side of Germany. And the office is one big open office…

My commute is a 5 minute walk. And thats no accident. I very deliberately chose my flat to be quite near to work. Has saved me about 5000 hours of commute time so far.

I love how that's an obvious option for everyone else too! /s

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#173

Post by claytonjy »

endymi0n wrote: post #15
xvector wrote: post #3

Can’t imagine not having at least partial WFH after this pandemic. If my office doesn’t let me WFH, I will also be leaving. A good portion of my team is similarly minded, but management is insistent on disallowing WFH. I can’t wait to see their faces when the company bleeds massive swaths of engineering talent. It’s about damn time that companies realized that they ought to treat their employees like the adults that…

I hear this a lot of times recently — what I'm interested by now is where the new equilibrium will be going forward. So far us software engineers have often seen jobs as replaceable and we know we'll have another one at the snip of a finger should we quit. But with enough people actually quitting, how many remote or soon-remote companies will there be to scoop up the supply until quitting an office job cold could be…

I changed jobs recently, though not because the old one was going to make me come back to the office. I've never seen such a frothy job market, I had multiple offers for fully remote roles with a 20%+ raise.

I'm a data engineer in the Midwest with just under a decade of experience. All these companies seem to be hiring plenty of other roles and levels of seniority as well.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#174

Post by dimmke »

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #153
ushkarev wrote: post #143

Personally speaking, I cannot wait to have the opportunity to be back to the office 100% of the time. I just cannot cope with the lack of proper division between my home life and work life. Some of my colleagues agree, but I obviously recognise the fact that most do not. Even before the pandemic our organisation had hybrid working conditions and I’m pretty sure that’s what they’re aiming for again in the near future;…

“ lack of proper division between my home life and work life.” This tells me you’re doing WFH wrong or don’t have enough discipline for it. That’s okay, wfh is not for everyone, but don’t blame this on anyone but yourself. There are tons of ways to have that proper separation, including but not limited to, replacing the transitional commute with a walk to switch contexts. You can find a lot of tips and techniques on…

I am reasonably productive WFH (I was 2 days a week remote before pandemic and have had fully remote jobs in the past)- but the way some people talk about it really bothers me.

The people that want it, really want it, are almost like zealots about it. Where if anybody mentions that they struggle with WFH, they get mad almost like it's a kid raising his hand to tell a teacher they forgot to collect the homework.

And I get it - Going full remote would literally be life changing for a lot of people. But there has to be nuance there.

People often talk about the importance of a "third place" in communities. A place that isn't home or work for people to socialize. The WFH zealots are advocating for a complete elimination of even a "second place" - But the workplace is something a lot of people benefit from. You form deeper connections and sometimes friendships with your coworkers, some people use it as a way to concentrate away from the responsibilities of home.

Getting rid of the office would have huge implications on our society as a whole.

I also feel that WFH was easier for me when I did it after having been in office for a long time. Both in terms of connections with the team and having office time helps instill discipline around work. As newer generations enter the work-force without that, I can see it being really hard for them (in both directions - in that they slack off and don't do anything or that they become workaholics.)

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#175

Post by halfmatthalfcat »

foobiekr wrote: post #67
k__ wrote: post #29

I have to admit, after I fought for remote work with a bunch of hiring managers before the pandemic, I feel quite a bit Schadenfreude right now. Also, I think, in the long run remote work will level the playing field between introverts and extroverts quite a bit.

It will not because remote only will continue to be rare. There’s a bit of a Harrison Bergeron thinking there.

Take a look at Dice, Indeed, LinkedIn Jobs, Github Jobs, etc. Look at the amount of remote positions there are now. Objectively, your comment is false.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#176

Post by forz877 »

teeray wrote: post #34

WFH will also be the ultimate hiring perk. It now basically costs nothing, since the costs have already been realized. Also, everybody wants it, so it’s high value among candidates. You can basically offer the same comp as a current employer but add WFH and you have a compelling offer.

WFH already has been a hiring perk for many who were willing to put in the effort to get there.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#177

Post by luffapi »

bootlooped wrote: post #129
luffapi wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the counter is to use your new found freedom wfh to get real non-commercial social interaction. With friends, family, neighbors… You’re at the mercy of your employer in more ways than one if you rely on them for such a core human need.

Firstly, the context of what I wrote was building trust and team cohesion within the organization. I don't think having or not having friends and family is relevant to that. Secondly, we spend a lot of our finite lives working, do you want that part of your life to be cold and robotic? Wouldn't life be richer with a wide range of human relationships?

WFH fosters far more trust than “I must see my underlings churning away to be comfortable”, which is currently the driving force for those trying to return to the previous norm.

Every contractor will tell you that you can be far more productive than normal employees because you don’t get quagmired in silly social drama. Look at open source software, it is absolutely possible to create great software without even knowing the other team members. This whole concept that reproducing high school in a professional setting adds to productivity is entirely unfounded.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#178

Post by brewdad »

contravariant wrote: post #156
prirun wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of meetings are also a complete waste of many people's time.

Though if there's anything the past few months have demonstrated, online meetings have that same problem.

The solution is fewer, more effective, meetings not forcing people back to face-to-face meetings that should have been an email.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#179

Post by luffapi »

forz877 wrote: post #170
luffapi wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to deal with my co-workers as professionals, definitely not as friends. They are not my friends, I’m paid to work with them. Companies are more productive when you remove social drama, not less.

This is utopia. Human beings are competitive and social, and to achieve your goals you need more than professionals sometimes- you need friends.

It’s unprofessional to suggest that you can only be productive if you are surrounded with friends. I will happily produce with a team made up of people I would never socialize with. It happens all the time as none of my real friends even know how to code. Not once has this impacted my performance.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#180

Post by luffapi »

marcinzm wrote: post #135
luffapi wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you’ve worked under terrible management if you’re having these problems. On a properly run team people don’t squabble and politic. It is possible to work in a healthy manner, remote or otherwise. The drama you avoid when remote stems from not being forced to co-locate with individuals for a large swath of your waking hours. That is a breeding ground for unhealthy behavior.

I have yet to see a non-tiny company that doesn't have political squabbles cross-team and especially cross-department. It's the nature of many groups competing for finite resources and diverging goals. I have however seen many engineers be utterly obvious to the politics going on and getting burned by it in the end.

The politics are greatly reduced when everyone is remote. No “in group” lunches or beers after work…

There are entire categories of drama that wfh eliminates.

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