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Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

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Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#621

Post by Aachen »

bmn__ wrote: post #558
Aachen wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have some more questions (serious), can I have the number of one of these people? Point being, it's not that straightforward unless there's someone you already know that is willing to share their contact information and they actually have the time to talk to you. I totally see the point about going for second-best first until you know you have a question worth their time and not something that's obvious. (Although…

> I have some more questions (serious) Contact the department of health education of the ministry of health. You already paid for it with your taxes, might as well make use of it.

Yeah I've done that two or three times about different things. One time I got an answer, the other (reporting an outdated page) an automated reply five days later that they're too busy. I don't expect they have time for in-depth questions about research that's not even a month old. Thanks for the tip though!

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#622

Post by fastball »

lettergram wrote: post #407
fastball wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too have degrees in bioengineering, and I'm interested: given the function of an mRNA vaccine, by what mechanism do you think it would be possible for the cure to be worse than the disease in this case? Said another way, if you are guaranteed to either get COVID-19 or an mRNA vaccine, would you really prefer to get COVID-19? If so, what are you worried about in the vaccine that SARS-CoV-2 does not have? Additionall…

I’ve had covid19, wasn’t a big deal, more mild than the flu I had the year prior. In fact, half the people I know got covid19. The only people I know who ended up in the hospital were a couple of family members who were vaccinated. Regarding the mechanism. Inflammation, we are not 100% sure where and what cells the mRNA is injected into and the spike proteins themselves have risk. Further, you’re training the body to…

What exactly do you think is happening when you get SARS-CoV-2? Do you think your cells are not taking viral mRNA and using it to make proteins? That is exactly what a virus does – it hijacks certain parts of your body that don't know any better to do its bidding. That protein is going to be produced by your body whether you get the virus or you get the vaccine. The difference is that with the vaccine the spike protein is all your body is producing (and a limited amount at that), while with the real virus your body is contending with 29 proteins that can work together in concert.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#623

Post by Nursie »

tekknik wrote: post #616
Nursie wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s my megaphone I’ll do what I like with it, particularly if what you want to do with it is likely to incite violence or spread (for example) dangerous health misinformation during a pandemic. You seem to be repeating the current right wing grievances. If you’re not on the right then... ok.

> If it’s my megaphone I’ll do what I like with it, particularly if what you want to do with it is likely to incite violence or spread (for example) dangerous health misinformation during a pandemic. Got it, so if we don’t agree with how something is used we shut it down. Republicans attempted this before with bakeries, so I guess this means it’s ok now? And the inciting violence thing, you realize that’s a left beli…

If it’s my thing and I don’t agree with how you’re using it - 100%. Particularly if you’re (for instance) spreading medical misinformation during a pandemic.

Not sure what your point even is here any more.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#624

Post by daddylongstroke »

topranks wrote: post #486
jader201 wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic, who’s to say “things won’t change” again, such that they find there is cause for concern after all? I’m not saying that’s what I believe, but if you’re admitting that we’re “changing and updating our beliefs as evidence comes in”, that also implies that we didn’t — and may still not — have all the data in front of us to make decisions.

Indeed but what should we do? Nothing??? We have to make the best decision for ourselves and the society around us based on the best knowledge we have. Yes science always allows for things to be disproven, but if we follow your logic we’d not use any medicines or treatments. Come on.

Yes, nothing. Especially when you see the mortality rate is as low as it has turned out to be; there is very little reason for even 50% of the world to be vaccinated. Why would states be holding lotteries for only the vaccinated? Bizarre incentives if you ask me; dubious and unethical as well, since this is effectively a massive human trial. Most of the people I know that won't be getting a vaccine, feel the risk of serious complications from Covid19 are low for them and their families. Many of them have already had it and found it to have the same effects as all of the previous corona-viruses we've experienced. We have immune systems for a reason (as poor as they've grown in the Western world over the last 80 years or so), and believing that vaccinating against every bug that comes along, seems to be aligned with negative natural selection, which effectively sets us all up for a super bug extinction level event. At the least 50% of the world should stay clear of all vaccines if we want to survive long-term as a species.

I would also like you to consider, that many of the anti-vaxx community, as virologists by profession. Many find the risks associated with vaccines (not just Covid19 but all), as often outweighing the benefits they purport to provide.

My family and I won't be getting the vaccine for many reasons (we have several professional medical practitioners in the family by the way). One being, we know someone directly involved in creating a mRNA-based vaccine at a large gov-funded biotech co.: their job on the project was based on proving that their employer did undertake the burden of attempting to get the compound that surrounds the mRNA bits and keeps them stable inside the solution, to pass through the human or other mammalian system. Here's the kicker, they can't, and everybody in the business knows they can't (at least not yet), as they've been unable to get this compound out of the blood and organs once introduced. It is synthesized largely from plants, so they consider it "natural". :-D But the truth is, we don't have any data on long term exposure and retention of this compound inside of our blood stream, organs, and other tissues. The mRNA-based vaccines would not have passed scrutiny had they not been granted emergency approval, and yes they've been working on them for a decade+.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#625

Post by daddylongstroke »

nikolay wrote: post #319
trutannus wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like, having this magic, absolutely mind boggling potion that prevents serious illness and death isn't already the lottery win of our lifetime A lot of it boils down to people not trusting what they're seeing. Frankly, governments have done the world a disservice by speaking before they really had all the information at the start of the pandemic. In Canada at least an insane amount of what was said turned out to be…

Governments lied to people on health topics so many times already, so why should people trust them - from cigarettes, through lead gasoline, to saturated fats. We all get the theory of mRNA vaccines, but we tend to oversimplify the most complex system in the universe - the human body. There is evidence that these spike proteins don't just get presented on the surface of the cells but circulate in the bloodstream, cro…

>Using certified masks (like in some European countries), getting adequate Vitamin D3 (along with vitamin K), and zinc with zinc ionophores should have been #1 priority, but this basica and benign prophylaxis has been totally underplayed, which also contributes to the lack of trust in the government.

I think you nailed it on the head there. Really the number one priority should be to stay the hell out of the medical system. Once you're in the medical system, you know you've fucked up (or just had an accident, whichever). My wife is a triage nurse now after 20 years bedside, and spends her days trying to talk people, who are calling their doctors to get a magic pill, into changing their lifestyles (diet largely) so that they don't require a pill. Most often, these people are not interested in a no-pill solution. They are happy to keep treating the problem, especially since most of them seem to be highly uninformed by the negative long-term health consequences of the meds they're taking. We have a close friend whose long-term doctor just prescribed her statins, for a flutter which was noted by her Apple Watch. She and her family, has no history of heart or other health issues. Actually, she's in her 60s and has never even had the flu or as much as a cold, until Cov19 got her in Feb. of 2020. They did not draw any blood work, but she had an echocardiagram which came back clean. When she asked the doctor why he would prescribe statins without doing any blood work, or having any other evidence, he said "this has become our standard procedure for anyone reporting a flutter or palpatation, plus those Apple Watches are very accurate!". I shit you not. This is the medical establishment we're all trying to stay healthy despite of.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#626

Post by daddylongstroke »

kaba0 wrote: post #356
splithalf wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some is the opposite: people know they are safe with or without it, and because there an infinitesimally small risk and very little direct personal benefit for young healthy people and then make the “rational” but myopic choice to not get vaccinated. The benefits are mostly to communities and older people, healthcare and other essential workers. A less myopic self interested rationalist might decide that despite it h…

I think the problem is more that they don’t understand that it is not a zero sum game of getting vaccinated with a tiny but some chance for adverse side-effects vs going on with life. It is taking a vaccine with 90%+ rate of success with exceedingly small side effects vs having a kind of high chance of getting a virus that has yet again quite a high chance of not being “just a flu” and causing long-lasting (perhaps e…

Hmmm, here I thought the problem is we rushed a vaccine which would usually take 7-10 years to get approved through, and are now spreading propaganda like "this vaccine is safe", instead of acknowledging the fact that no vaccine or other pharmacological treatment is ever "safe". There is no free lunch. We simply don't know what the long term side effects of the vaccine will be, because we've never been allowed to put mRNA inside humans before. The cat is now out of the bag. We will see in about 6-10 years, what long term damage will result in our organs and long term health outcomes as a result of this mass experiment. Also, I hope you understand that the 90% effectiveness rate you quote, is effectiveness of "treating your symptoms" so they're not so bad as to put you in critical condition inside a hospital. I fear most people who don't do any reading about the vaccines, believe the 90% efficacy number as touted by their medical practitioner, means that they will have a 90% chance that they won't contract the virus. Most of the highly educated people I work with, believe once they have the vaccine they no longer can contract or spread the virus.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#627

Post by daddylongstroke »

gremlinsinc wrote: post #386
tiborsaas wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like, having this magic, absolutely mind boggling potion that prevents serious illness and death isn't already the lottery win of our lifetime?? No, because a lot of people trust their friends or personal gurus more than any scientist or research. It doesn't matter what crap their social bubble is filled with, they can relate more to it.

I had someone tell me "science" is made to "replace" religion as another control mechanism... it's the "new religion". I was at a loss of words...

I would say in 2021, I'm definitely seeing science more as a religion than a practice. The political response to the virus has been eye opening. At least it's more clear now to me, who writes checks to whom, and for which published papers.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#628

Post by daddylongstroke »

bmn__ wrote: post #562
skinkestek wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I defend almost all religions, just not mine. Removing religion completely has been tried in a larger scale experiment in the Soviet Union and the results were very much worse than the most barbaric religions. When arguing about religion one shouldn't forget that they have a number of good attributes as well. Otherwise you are just fighting against a straw man and then it is no wonder why you win every single time :…

> Removing religion completely has been tried in a larger scale experiment in the Soviet Union and the results were very much worse than the most barbaric religions. What am I supposed to say here? "Good thing I'm not Stalin"? Just because he's against religion, too, does not mean I want to use his methods. > When arguing about religion one shouldn't forget that they have a number of good attributes as well. I've hea…

> I did not say that this fertile soil grew out of Enlightenment. I said that values of Enlightenment supplanted values of Christianity.

Absolutely, and I hope you can recognize the price that society has paid as a result.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#629

Post by nikolay »

daddylongstroke wrote: post #625
nikolay wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments lied to people on health topics so many times already, so why should people trust them - from cigarettes, through lead gasoline, to saturated fats. We all get the theory of mRNA vaccines, but we tend to oversimplify the most complex system in the universe - the human body. There is evidence that these spike proteins don't just get presented on the surface of the cells but circulate in the bloodstream, cro…

>Using certified masks (like in some European countries), getting adequate Vitamin D3 (along with vitamin K), and zinc with zinc ionophores should have been #1 priority, but this basica and benign prophylaxis has been totally underplayed, which also contributes to the lack of trust in the government. I think you nailed it on the head there. Really the number one priority should be to stay the hell out of the medical…

Statins are overprescribed and cause mitochondrial damage, which then leads to a list of potential chronic diseases and bingo! - now you'll be on Rx till the rest of your life! I blame it on the doctors who just conveniently follow procedures knowing they do more damage than good,although most of them have no choice if they want to keep their job. Due to the complicated coding and billing system, a lot of them don't even have the financial freedom to treat you the way they believe is the best for you.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#630

Post by refulgentis »

XorNot wrote: post #540
refulgentis wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Astra-Zeneca has been shown to be repeatedly poor against variants, a big story in the UK right now is whether the increase in cases and sense of being behind the US is due to gov't overly committing to a shoddy vaccine, or if it's variants burning through unvaccinated populations. The picture isn't nearly as rosey as OP makes it sound, unfortunately: sort of a gish gallop about knowing the rate at which we can…

Astra-Zeneca is not an mRNA vaccine. The mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) have both shown excellent (though in some cases reduced) efficacy against all strains [1], and the protein regions they target have not shown substantial alteration against antibody binding affinity (fun fact: this is "easy" to test - you give people the vaccine, isolate the antibodies in their blood, then test them against COVID in a petridi…

You gish gallop'd me through the floor by answering, yet again, as if I claimed something I hadn't. You should be ashamed for yourself, the very intent you had to better inform people was defeated by you.

You know most of the world isn't getting mRNA vaccines, and even if we quibble over 'most', it has nothing to do with your original nonsense, that somehow we know exactly when boosters for mRNA will be needed.

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